Berger Bullets vs Controlled Expansion Bullets

[bigngreen]

I didn't just jump on the Berger band wagon, it took quite a few kills before I would say I liked them, every time I load a new bullet I go back to the drawing board. Shoot some game close to see how it performs then work my way out till I've found where they work, no matter what bullet I'm loading. I even have a bullet trap that I can catch bullets in to get an idea of what to expect prior to going to the field.

I find Ridge Runners picks very odd, I've set out to get a Berger to do just that and I've failed in every case. We've shot 4 deer and 3 Antelope from under a 100yrds to over 500yrds with 60 gr Bergers clocking 3500fps from a 22-250. So far this year dad has put several Berger 140's from a 6.5 Sherman on deer and antelope, a nice buck took one this afternoon at 200+ yards and it poked a little hole in augured a one inch hole clean through his chest and blew a couple in hole out the back side, haven't see anything hold the 140 Berger we may yet see if an elk can hold one. I've only had two Bergers blow enough to not exit and I found the base and jacket under the of side of very dead elk hit with a 140 Berger from a 270 WSM starting out at 3300 fps, the second was shooting an antelope under 200 yrds with the 22-250 and placing the bullet on the point of the shoulder, blew a hole through the shoulder and took the top 2/3rds of the heart away before pooping out, again very dead animals.

I have no doubt a guy could get something bad to happen, I've had more than one brand of bonded or all copper bullets not get into the chest cavity on elk, heck I see it every year cutting elk. I don't believe there is a perfect bullet for everything, there is always a compromise somewhere but the trick is to understand it and shoot what bullet your using in the best manner for a clean kill.

 

[Greyfox]

I dont understand why everyone is praising the berger bullet that explodes for a hunting bullet? Why would anybody want a bullet to fragment upon impact and not penetrate very well along with a hundred pieces of fragments tearing through all directions?
Sounds like a great target or a man killer, but a very bad game round

As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.

 

[Ridge Runner]

As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.

could have something there, my 6.5 gibbs is an 8 twist kreiger finished at 29.5", it does have more pressure issues being cut rifled over a button rifled barrel, the bergers (orange box hunting bullets) were running 3180 fps using retumbo, the berger match (yellow box) from previous years were running 3300 with re-22, however I have used the 140 a-max at up to 3340 fps with decent results. I don't know but I'm off to accubonds in the gibbs next.
RR

 

[elkaholic]

As I stated in a prior post, I have had excellent performance and complete penetration on a fairly large sample of deer shot a ranges from 200-1000 yards. The only thing I can think of causing the variable results is something I experienced a several years ago with thin jacked , fast expanding bullets at high velocity in my 270wsm. And the Berger is thin jacketed, take a look at the dent in the bullet if seating pressure is too high. If you have a high velocity, combined with a fast twist and a rough bore, the bullet will leave the barrel in a weakened state and blow up on impact due to a weakened bullet case which actually occurs in the barrel. Its not the high impact velocity that causes the blow up, its the weakened bullet jacket. This is the first thing I thought when I looked at the pictures posted with the surface wounds. 3300 FPS out of a 6.5 with a fast twist imight be too much and turning the bullet into a grenade when it hits. I keep the velocities on my 6.5 with 140 VLD's at 2950 and it performs superbly at all ranges. There is a balance you have to reach if you want to take advantage of the down range ballistics of a VLD. I have not been able to get this balance with other hunting bullets in this caliber. I think the VLD formula works best with heavy, high BC , for caliber , at lower velocities. Just my opinion.

I agree with much of what you say. Every bullet has a window and a Berger is no exception. The nose of a Berger jacket measures .012" and it doesn't take much to change the expansion characteristics. My SXR's have a .010" nose and is part of the reason why they expand at 1300'. I do think that it is risky to shoot an elk in the shoulder at close range with a Berger, especially with the smaller calibers. of course they are more forgiving the larger you go. There is also a point where they don't expand reliably, and in my opinion, it is not down to 1800'. Again, every shot is different and it depends on what you hit. When you get into thin jacketed bullets, especially at high velocity, even twist rates and number of lands has an affect. I believe this is part of the reason why there is such a difference in opinion when comparing bullets to experiences. Overall, I believe a Berger is one of the good choices when used within its limitations.......Rich

 

[beretzs]

This is great reading. Thanks for posting up all the results. Haven't shot the first Berger, but I do have some for my 264WM and would like to give them a whirl, if anything, just to try on deer. Scotty

 

[FAL Shot]

For those who have read so far, if you even like the Berger the least bit, then you will probably love the A-Max.

One is made by a target bullet company who is gaining some knowledge in making hunting bullets.

The other is made by a hunting bullet company who knows how to make a hunting bullet that is as accurate as a target bullet, can sell it as a target bullet, and let hunters discover it is a great hunting bullet and let the target bullet mystique further shove sales.

When Berger started pushing their target bullets as hunting bullets, and after some noticeable sales were generated, it stands to reason the real hunting bullet companies would jump on the bandwagon with better hunting bullets disguised as target bullets.

So the real question might be: Do I want a target bullet disguised as a hunting bullet or a hunting bullet disguised as a target bullet? With Berger saying they recommend their bullet for hunting and Hornady saying they do not recommend their bullet for hunting, it is easy to see which camp each bullet is in.

There is some reverse psychology going on here , geared to those of a negatory mindset as a modus operandi. The main thing is if the spindoctor approach rings up some cash register sales for each company.

I'm awaiting a response from Speer.

Nosler has pushed the Ballistic Tip even before the Berger VLD came on the scene.

Sierra has had an answer before either Nosler, Berger or Hornady.....called the GameKing....except a bit tougher than a MatchKing up close and more reliable expansion at distance.

The Hornady A-Max is obviously what you get if you cross a Nosler BT with a Berger VLD.

 

[bowhunter42]

I am completely sold on the Berger's for hunting. I just started using them earlier this year and was very pleased with how accurate they were out of my 300wsm and 300 win mag, and could'nt wait to hunt with them. I went on a mule deer hunt in september and used the 185 vld to help finish off my partner's buck, The bullet entered just in front of the shoulder at 185 yards (quartering to) and turned the entire chest cavity to mush. Then took an elk in montana at 331 yards, put the round in the center of the shoulder, she took one step and fell over a log. same result, a chest cavity full of mush. Then this last weekend, I took a mule deer buck at 609 yards, It was a quartering away shot, the round hit 4" behind the shoulder, took out a rib, The bullet then traveled into the chest cavity and once again turned everything to mush. The buck ran about 10 yards and the tumbled 200 yards down the mountain. I have used the accu-bond exclusively up till this year, and have noticed that I lose alot less meat with the Berger, Especially on the entrance side of an animal. I have also used them on several coyotes and unless I hit bone they usually just go right thru with minimal pelt damage, But if you do hit bone you could wear that hide like a hat. Imo they are a devastating bullet that just put the smack down on animals. I would not hesitate to use them at any yardage.

 

[Broz]

I am completely sold on the Berger's for hunting. I just started using them earlier this year and was very pleased with how accurate they were out of my 300wsm and 300 win mag, and could'nt wait to hunt with them. I went on a mule deer hunt in september and used the 185 vld to help finish off my partner's buck, The bullet entered just in front of the shoulder at 185 yards (quartering to) and turned the entire chest cavity to mush. Then took an elk in montana at 331 yards, put the round in the center of the shoulder, she took one step and fell over a log. same result, a chest cavity full of mush. Then this last weekend, I took a mule deer buck at 609 yards, It was a quartering away shot, the round hit 4" behind the shoulder, took out a rib, The bullet then traveled into the chest cavity and once again turned everything to mush. The buck ran about 10 yards and the tumbled 200 yards down the mountain. I have used the accu-bond exclusively up till this year, and have noticed that I lose alot less meat with the Berger, Especially on the entrance side of an animal. I have also used them on several coyotes and unless I hit bone they usually just go right thru with minimal pelt damage, But if you do hit bone you could wear that hide like a hat. Imo they are a devastating bullet that just put the smack down on animals. I would not hesitate to use them at any yardage.

Nice to hear actual field reports like this. Your results mirror mine. Now by reading the posts you wll be able to determine who is actually using the Bergers and who has simply choosen to not like them with out trying them first.

Good job and congrats on your successful season. Feels good to anchor them quick and fast doesn't it.

Thanks for the report.

Jeff

 

[bowhunter42]

Ya there is nothing cooler then a non tracking job! And please dont get me wrong, I have nothing bad to say about the accu-bond, Its a GREAT bullet, In fact my girlfriend used one to drop her first elk this year, One shot at 371 with a 270 and 140gr AB and it dropped in its tracks. But if her rifle had the right twist rate in it she would be shooting A 150gr Berger. You just can't beat the accuracy and high BC of the VLD hunting bullet! Jay gun)

 

[leaddog]

I to have had nothing but good luck from the Berger bullets in my 7mm RUM, I am shooting the 180 vld at 3200fps. I have shot 5 elk now with them from 200 yds to 560 yds. All shots where complete pass through with 2'' hole on exit side. All were lung shots, I personally try and not shoot front shoulder as I like my elk meat to much. Not one of these have gone more than 60 yds. Also have shot 2 deer with this load. One at 250- the other at 550, same results. I also have had good results with the 150gr vld in my 270wsm at 3290fps. Two elk and 4 deer that never went more than 50 yds. Up until I changed I had shot mostly Nosler partitions but most of my hunting until the last 7-8 years had been at ranges that hardly ever got to 500 yds. The reason why I switched to the Bergers was the areas I was wanting to hunt now favored more long range shots. I never had any problems with the Nosler's its just that the Bergers don't seem to fall out of the air like the Noslers do once you get beyond 500 yds. I also have a friend who swears that he will never shoot Bergers because he shot an elk and never could find it. The only thing I can say to this is that without the animal we will never know where it was shot, and as previously stated, there is not any bullet out there that lets you shoot an animal anywhere at all and always have a kill shot. So for now I am a firm believer that if I do my job the Berger will do its.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Berger don't design anything to shed jacket or core weight.
To answer this question you need to know something about making jacketed bullets.
Berger started in the Bench rest bullet game making loose core BR accuracy bullets.
Now just because the bullet tip is open does not mean it is a true hollow point in fact loose core ( meaning not weld core , not crimped core , not h mantel , not multi jacket , not core bonded etc ) BR type bullets are a Protected point. PP . This means the jacket point is open but the core is flat and square under the meplat ( point) . Not a traditional hollow point as that would have a cavity in the core material.
Now Berger use the loose core PP style because it makes the most accurate bullet when combined with very concentric precision made jackets like J4 which is a Berger subsidiary .
Once you start adding , jacket crimping , H mantels , core bonding , multi jackets , canular crimping , heavy solid bases , partitioned jackets etc . etc. You introduce greater risk of variables that will upset the balance and concentricity of the whole bullet and then the potential accuracy.
Keep the process as simple as possible keeps it accurate.
External bullet shape affects accuracy also and at longer ranges the higher BC bullets assist higher accuracy most of the time but inside the bullet the simple process of the loose core and PP design is still in operation .
You can make two bullets identical in every way except one is core bonded and one is not and the non bonded bullet ( loose core ) will in most cases shoot tighter groups.
It all comes down to once you introduce that bonding procedure , either soldering , chemical you have upset the fine concentric balance of the bullet.
The same thing happens with other additional processes to some degree that give a bullet controlled expansion . Ballistic tips are an attempt to get around this problem by introducing a very controllable device that will not upset the concentricity and balance of the bullet greatly while also enhancing the BC .
The construction of the bullet is a trade off as to what purpose it will be put too in use . The short range BR bullet only needs consistent grouping accuracy and terminal ballistics is irrelevant . However a big game bullet needs good terminal ballistics for the intended target first and foremost and BR accuracy is not required .
Many loose core PP bullets made well with precision jackets will take a variety of thin skinned game quite well and do it with better accuracy than most run of the mill bullets. How well a bullet is made and how good the jackets are made has a lot to do with how well they will shoot.
Thin jackets like J4's are easier to make to a high precision and as the jacket gets thicker and the base thicker or the jacket design more complicated , partitions etc the precision is more costly and hence lost to some degree .
That is why most bullets sold as Target bullets will have thin jackets in most cases . Berger has done some work in this area to produce a thicker precision jacket than previously used and in this case a stronger jacket has resulted that still preserves accuracy or so they say.
This was done mainly because the thinner target jackets were having trouble with the cut rifled barrels and blowing up in flight.
The end result is a target type bullet with a stronger jacket that should still shoot well with the side benefit that it can take soft skin game more effectively . With the trend to longer ogives and smaller Meplats in target type bullets this can also mean that they penertrate soft skin game deeper before they start to deform and may go right through because the fine Meplat does not pick up any real frontal pressure like a big open tip will . However on a hard thick bone target the longer ogive is weaker than the lower caliber ( blunter) ogive and can bend before it penertates properly having unpredictable results . That is why big heavy bullets for Dangerous game have solid points and blunt ogives to resist any chance of deflection off the hard surface .
Once the target is the bigger hard skinned game the controlled expansion and solid types come into play and generally Varmint type accuracy goes out the window not only from bullet construction but also from recoil and weapon type .
Once you understand how bullets are made and the limitations of certain designs you realise that bullet makers make a bullet to suit a particular purpose and then go about making up a spiel to promote it's sales sometimes that spiel is very accurate and sometimes it's fantasy.
Selecting the right type of bullet for your job is a huge subject and a whole book could be dedicated to it . However we are very well served by some good companies like Berger , Sierra , Hornady , Nosler etc. that do a lot of the work for us.

 

[Ankeny]

I jumped on the Berger bandwagon a few years back. Between my brother an myself we shot four elk with 168 VLD's out of our 7mm Rem Mags at max with RE-22 powder. In our elk country a shot can present anywhere from 50 yards to as far as a person is comfortable shooting. The results were mixed. I gave up entirely on Bergers for elk the following year when I shot a huge 6x6 bull. The first shot hit (at about 695 yards) hit the bull behind the front shoulder dead center on a rib. That long nosed bullet failed to expand and instead the nose bent sending the bullet skittering down the rib cage until the bullet entered the gut cavity and came to rest. I was (still am) not only amazed but ****ed off. At least the animal was recovered thanks to follow up shots.

This year I decided to try Bergers again, but this time I went with the 140 VLD in my 6.5-284. I shot an antelope at just under 700 yards with the high shoulder shot as per the Best of the West. The pronghorn went down hard. To my amazement the critter shook it off and got up and just walked off. I shot the critter a second time at about 150 yards about 30 minutes later right in the ribs and it was DRT. The first round failed to open up and just punched right through. I guess it disrupted the spinal cord enough to knock the animal down initially, but not enough damage to keep it down.

I also shot a white tail deer with the 6.5mm 140 VLD. The animal was quartering sightly away such that a shot behind the front shoulder should hit in the front shoulder on the off side. I shot the animal right behind the front shoulder at 75 yards and it took off like I missed. I found it dead about 50 yards away. The bullet entered between two ribs then exited behind the diaphragm on the off side leaving a hole the size of a quarter. The bullet actually went through the animal in the opposite direction than expected. Yes, I was using the hunting bullet in the orange box.

I'll use the Bergers on antelope and dear because of their exceptional accuracy, high BC, and velocity potential due to the low bearing surface. After my experience with the Bergers on five elk, no way...

 

[timmay]

I will admit, I havent ever hunted with them, just read what they do.
I thought they were a fragmenting bullet that like other fragmenting bullets wouldnt be good for hunting, but if the results prove that it is a good hunting round than it is what it is.
If it puts down deer and elk with minimal meat loss, than its a good hunting round.
Im no bullet snob, Ill use whatever works.
Im actually on a mission to find which bullet would be the best all around bullet, so I can load everything with it. I know there isnt a true one bullet that does it all, but I am looking for the closet thing to that...maybe the Berger VLD is it?

 

[FAL Shot]

The best all around HUNTING bullet would be the Nosler Partition if you can get it to shoot accurately in your rifle. It opens up at long range. It holds together and punches through at short range. It is not an ultra long range bullet due to the average BC. No ultra long range bullet with a high BC is an all around bullet. The NP does more things well than any other expanding hunting bullet, mainly giving up the ultra long range category. The longer, heavier for caliber versions should qualify as a long range bullet, but not an ultra long range bullet. If you have a run-in with dangerous game, you may be glad you have a Partition in the chamber.

Load a Partition in the chamber, and have your long range bullet in the magazine. You have plenty of time to eject the Partition and load your BC champ on a very long range shot.