A deer for the books

[RockyMtnUT]

So what does this great bit of information tell us & what can we do to improve moving forward

Aim low on an up hill shot.

And use a follow up shot asap.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think this was the classic high shoulder shot that so often gives very dramatic results. The bullet penetrated far enough but did little internal damage. I suppose if he hand been 1" higher the spine would have been impacted and his finishing shot would have been within minutes instead of six months. Hard to say he was really off his mark. His shot did hit the lungs. The problem here is bullet performance. Not bullet failure. This bullet worked as designed. Problem is the bullet squished / expanded too much on the impact causing it to lose to much velocity. It lost so much velocity that as it passed through the lungs it no longer made a large enough permanent wound to cause the vital tissue to bleed enough to shut off the CNS. Also the nice rounded mushroom gently parting it's way through the vital tissue doing little tearing. This is the problem with the theory that bullets should not pass through an animal in order to "dump" all of their energy into the animal. Bullets do not have sensors that tell them when to expand and when to stop. Every bullet begins to rapidly slow down upon impact lessoning the ability to do damage until it stops and no longer does any damage. If somehow this bullet could have magically hit as it did but then retained all of it's velocity all the way through the animal then the result would have been much different. We all know that no bullet can do that, but by design this bullet and other "energy dump" bullets are set up for failure when the impact velocity is too high or the initial impact is too dense. In this case both. High velocity impact on the shoulder. A bullet with more integrity that has more control over the amount of deformation and shed weight would have lost less velocity on the impact, passed through the vitals with more retained velocity creating a larger round channel that would have done more lung damage and spine damage. Then likely passing through the animal creating the exit hole. The exit hole is not what kills this animal. The retained velocity that made it possible to exit is what would have killed it the first time, 6 months ago.

I don't think there was failure here by hunter or bullet. Just poor bullet performance.

 

[nwokie]

I used to shoot a 100 grain Cor Loct out of my 25-06. My daughter was using my rifle for WT hunting in an area that bordered a large patch of weeds that were 6 ft.+ tall. Told her to shoot for the shoulder and put the deer down. Which is exactly what happened. That buck went down and then got up and ran into the the weed patch on 3 legs. Ended up chasing it around for an hour in there before finishing him off. The Cor loct disintegrated on the shoulder at 175 yards and didn't penetrate to vitals. That's when I decided to start reloading. I know there have been tons of deer killed with those bullets, but I'll never use them, or any factory ammo again. Much better choices out there. Read several statements that Cor Locts aren't frangible, I would disagree.

 

[Jon Bischof]

I think this was the classic high shoulder shot that so often gives very dramatic results. The bullet penetrated far enough but did little internal damage. I suppose if he hand been 1" higher the spine would have been impacted and his finishing shot would have been within minutes instead of six months. Hard to say he was really off his mark. His shot did hit the lungs. The problem here is bullet performance. Not bullet failure. This bullet worked as designed. Problem is the bullet squished / expanded too much on the impact causing it to lose to much velocity. It lost so much velocity that as it passed through the lungs it no longer made a large enough permanent wound to cause the vital tissue to bleed enough to shut off the CNS. Also the nice rounded mushroom gently parting it's way through the vital tissue doing little tearing. This is the problem with the theory that bullets should not pass through an animal in order to "dump" all of their energy into the animal. Bullets do not have sensors that tell them when to expand and when to stop. Every bullet begins to rapidly slow down upon impact lessoning the ability to do damage until it stops and no longer does any damage. If somehow this bullet could have magically hit as it did but then retained all of it's velocity all the way through the animal then the result would have been much different. We all know that no bullet can do that, but by design this bullet and other "energy dump" bullets are set up for failure when the impact velocity is too high or the initial impact is too dense. In this case both. High velocity impact on the shoulder. A bullet with more integrity that has more control over the amount of deformation and shed weight would have lost less velocity on the impact, passed through the vitals with more retained velocity creating a larger round channel that would have done more lung damage and spine damage. Then likely passing through the animal creating the exit hole. The exit hole is not what kills this animal. The retained velocity that made it possible to exit is what would have killed it the first time, 6 months ago.

I don't think there was failure here by hunter or bullet. Just poor bullet performance.

Well said!

 

[birddog 68]

Bonded or monos are made to withstand shoulder shots. If you're shoulder shooting with a cup and core bullet you will eventually be disappointed with them.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with cor lokt bullets and I have never had a problem but I don't shoulder shoot with them.

 

[hemiford]

Bonded or monos are made to withstand shoulder shots. If you're shoulder shooting with a cup and core bullet you will eventually be disappointed with them.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with cor lokt bullets and I have never had a problem but I don't shoulder shoot with them.

Bonded or monos are made to withstand shoulder shots. If you're shoulder shooting with a cup and core bullet you will eventually be disappointed with them.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with cor lokt bullets and I have never had a problem but I don't shoulder shoot with them.

What are folks's opinions and experiences with Swift A-frames ?

 

[birddog 68]

What are folks's opinions and experiences with Swift A-frames ?

No experience here so no opinion.

 

[HARPERC]

I don't think there was failure here by hunter or bullet.

This one falls into the category of anatomy, and physiology. Stuff just happens once in awhile.

 

[fordy]

Gday
Back again & I personally thank the posters for your replies to ea other way better & im sure the silent readers will be also happy
Let's keep it up fellas

I'm going to try & reply to everyone & to how I see it & please challenge my thoughts & I'll also give actuals that I've seen in the field that will back this up time after time on bullet preformance not %100 just what happens & it's where I concentrate the little I can do in the field these days I guess it's still substantial to a lot of you but to me it's small numbers
Trying not to come across as the know it all as I'm still learning & hope to till the day I die
Thanks for the input keeps me a ticking
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Gday bob
Yes I was quoting you
Please excuse my lack of writing skills as I'm not very good @ putting my thoughts into words sorry

(Hopefully, you were mentioning my comment.)
Yes, you did interpret correctly. This pronghorn at 365 yards, Texas heart shot, there was little damage thru the guts, and the pass thru in the heart looked like a drilled hole. Very small permanent wound thru the entire animal. I don't think any bone got touched except for the sternum on exit, maybe. Pass thru shot. I dont recall a blood trail. Lungs barely got touched. Maybe 30 yards travel after impact. If I remember correctly the box muzzle velocity claim was ~2700, 30-06, 165 grain out of a short barrel Remington 742 semi auto. Certainly the opposite of a long range rifle, lol.
It was not a messy field dressing like most gut shots are.
I hate those jobs. Yeesh!

This is a very good observation of what corelox & others do
It's that wound channel that we need to pay attention to & I've got a couple other posters that I think it's better for me to quote them but I'll reference your quote above as this is exactly where performance can & does drop off
Cheers

 

[fordy]

Gday chanceintexas

Hey Fordy,
I can relate some real-world experience on Cor-Lokts. I'm new around here so for some background...I've been guiding deer hunters (and quite a few exotics) here in Texas for maybe 30 years. I've seen literally thousands of deer killed. In my early guiding days, I couldn't stand Cor-Lokts. It seemed like back then, most of the time the core and jacket would separate. I hated them. Caliber didn't matter. I just flat out hated them. Then for some reason, I started shooting the Remington 55gr PSP in my 22-250 for does and culls. We have always called them Cor-Lokts, but it says PSP on the box. Anyway, they shot VERY well in that 22-250. With that little gun I wasn't concerned with getting an exit and didn't care if the bullet came apart, so I was ok with the Remingtons. But over the years I noticed that little bullet always stayed together. Hmmm...maybe something changed? So I started shooting the 150gr Cor-Lokts in my 308 (suppressed) for does and culls. They worked awesome. NONE came apart. I'm thinking somewhere over the years they had to have changed the construction on them. Had to. I've since guided many hunters shooting Cor-Lokts in many calibers and they have become one of my all-time favorite bullets. For what it's worth, with that 22-250 and 308 with those bullets, I've killed well over 1,000 deer and for the life of me I can't think of even one bullet failure.

For your buddy with that stag, I see nothing that says bullet failure or bad performance. It was shot placement and angle. Nothing more, nothing less. Just 1" different placement and that thing would likely have died in short order. The fact that the bullet didn't exit has no bearing on whether that stag was going to live or die.

Thankyou
Nice numbers
I'm not to sure on if anything's changed from original to new but potentially yes from your report

I agree the bullet didn't fail & placement with this bullet would have been better in other spots but we have what we have & shows to me where limits are
Yes I do believe other brands would have given a different outcome not just thinking as the wound path of different pills create different wounds & it's finding a pill to cover the most of them we can encounter in the field that will give us a more consistent result

Cheers

 

[fordy]

Gday Jon I agree a exit on the whole will give far better impact to tip results

I beg to differ. Not only does an exit have bearing, it would have resulted in a faster death.

I'd just add if you get the wound channel correct on the pill we use

It's the
Bubble & shape charge for me
I'll go into a bit more detail further on

Cheers

 

[2buffalo]

I'm off testing pills today / tomorrow & it's for all you longrange low impact freaks

?????

 

[fordy]

Gday QSYB1

Given that the animal didn't die, I don't see how you can be so firm on that. If you look at the cavity picture, the original exit was nearly at the spine, it was so high on the ribs. There was nothing up there to hit and no blood would have been flowing from that hole. This was 100% a placement issue.

I'm not 100% on just a placement but do agree a different placed shot would be a different outcome with this pill

Here's what I'm interpreting from the pictures after studying the actual pictures more yep I think it's angled more than I first thought
Yellow spine red pill path
Bottom 3 pics are samba top one just reference Still not saying pill failure just it wasn't upto the task & goes with what bob put up previously on the small wound
The energy has mainly been dumped in the on shoulder & your left with a long narrow wound till the pill stopped
The shape charge is all wrong for this shot placement

I'm not having a go @ anyone just saying it as I see it so please no offence intended to anyone & please pull those pictures apart as that's how we will learn
I'll confirm angle asap
Cheers