TxHeartShot
Well-Known Member
My experience is pretty simple...everything I ever shot with an A-frame is deader than disco and has been since the impact of the first shot. Now I need to knock on wood...
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MOA or bust
Well-Known Member
One point we may not have considered is that a bullet exit wound to the chest (lungs) offers a second avenue for the game to develop a tension pneumothorax (air in the chest outside the lungs) which is deadly.
BillLarson
Well-Known Member
I,ve killed 2 elk and alot of deer with BP,S
Hmm! Been in the wild game harvest effort for many years and now at 74 here is my 2 cents.
In the 60's I used core locks on Whitetails at modest woods distances. At lower 30-30 velocities a second or more shot was often used. Then stepped up to 300 savage velocities and they drop a deer much quicker usually with one and done. In the early 70's moving up to 30-06 velocities core locks worked on whitetails and western mule deer, antelope and elk.
Tried the Jack O'Connor favorite .270 Winchester with 130 Grain Interlocks about 1973 and used them for whitetails, mule deer, antelope, black bear and elk until giant mule deer experience in 1984. I did harvest the mule deer but it took several (possibly) 3 shots. Liked the flatter trajectories of the 270 Winchester for the long western shots in those days before range finders and custom turrets.
Moved back to the 30 cal in 1984 but in a magnum. A nice change with heavier weight bullets at higher velocities and flatter trajectories. Had separations with cup and core bullets on occasion and retained weights could be a low percent of starting weight. I knew that lost weight of lead was somewhere. Maybe in some of the meat we would be eating.
Tried the all copper bullets in the early 2000 and have had great success with them. They are almost always a higher ballistic coefficient than cup and core bullets of the same caliber and weight. They fly great in either pointed or tipped varieties. They mushroom usually perfectly with 4 individual petals. They usually retain most of their starting weight unless a petal or petals gets sheared off by hitting bone. They don't leave any lead fragments or lead smears on the meat.
So my vote is for all copper (expanding) bullets of a caliber and weight appropriate for the size and toughness of the game being hunted pushed as fast as the cartridge / rifle can safely handle in a rifle / sight appropriate for the distance.
I use copper 150 grain in 30 cal magnum for game up to elk size then step up to 165-180 grain for elk. If I hunted moose sized game I might consider 200 grain.
Son of a Gun!
Well-Known Member
Just thought I'd share a story about an antelope I shot several years back! I shot this antelope during archery season the shot was about 50 yds. with the arrow hitting a little high but should have been lethal! He started bucking like a bronc and squealing like I've never heard from an antelope! He took off and ran onto property where I could not pursue him but I could watch him. He had a big blood stain on his side but was still moving! I never recovered him! Well come rifle season the same buck came back and I killed him with one shot from my 25-06. When I examined him the archery wound had healed somewhat but I don't see why it hadn't killed him? It should have taken out at least one lung!
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GuntherRLII
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Devil's advocating, not falling on one side or the other of this debate but it is extremely possible there was no tension pneumothorax. In fact I submit to you it very possibly could be an open pnemo that would resolve over time. Tensions are deadly mostly because of cardiac output issues not ventilation issues. Seen several many peoples with tensions that have great spo2 and etco2 and have low bp and circulation issues. After darting the chest spo2 and etco2 stay the same, bp comes up and skin conditions, mentation etc improves. Seen a bunch of open pneumos also, some of which have basically no symptoms at all, well, besides the hole or holes in their chest. Since imaging is so good now quite a few are even treated medically not surgically.
MOA or bust
Well-Known Member
Thanks Gunther, appreciate your comments. My point was simply that a second hole in the thoracic cavity would probably increase the odds of tension pneumothorax and lethality. Not to mention possibly a better blood trail. I like exit wounds. 
The stag obviously didn't develop a tension pneumothorax or other major complication from the original shot and miraculously recovered.
The stag obviously didn't develop a tension pneumothorax or other major complication from the original shot and miraculously recovered.
GuntherRLII
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I also love exits. Like Elmer said, Let a lot of blood out and a lot of air in. Shoot enough critters and weird stuff happens. Shot a 90 pound whitetail as it jumped a fence, quartering away. Right behind the last rib thinking It would come out the right shoulder or sternal notch lower neck area. Range about 200 yards with a 180 Hornady Interlock at about 2800 ish out of an '06. Deer falls. Walk back to the car, about 1/4 mile in the opposite direction because why take those extra steps while I have my 5 year old son with me? Drive bak to the deer, it gets up and takes off. Next 2 hours are spent in the coulee, chasing that dang deer between me and my bro-in-law. He pops it through the gut with a 150 Federal factory. I then grab the deer by the head and break it's neck. Yes, it was his gut shot, gut and contents sprayed in the snow. I gut the deer and see my entrance hole right where it should be, it goes through the diaphragm and DISAPPEARS! No exit, no lung damage, no nothing. Checked about as long as I could, never found any part of the bullet. Replayed this in my head for almost 30 years. Logical mind, maybe hit a fence post and blew the bullet up or actually put a chunk of post into the deer? What I saw though was a perfectly round hole. And again I think I should have found some evidence of the bullet.
This.
JMO: Core Lokt seems to have performed reasonably well. It did expand. Stopping just under the opposite-side skin indicates it dumped the energy it had in the animal.
It wasn't enough - for where it impacted.
By expanding early, it dissipated energy on muscle and bone. Had it caused more damage to the lungs it may have been fatal. This would have been more likely had it fragmented in the lungs or retained sufficient energy (through mass, velocity or a combination) to damage more tissue.
OR had it struck the animal lower, thereby traversing more lung on the way across.
We could all carry a .458 Lott when hunting Whitetail, but hitting them in the literal tail would likely fail to put a deer in the freezer. 'Holding on fur' even at close range (higher velocity) is no guarantee of a successful hunt.
A marginal bullet badly placed (which imo correctly describes this shot) isn't either.
Nobody asked me - but all the discussion about bullet performance seems to overlook that the hunter (likely through inexperience) made a less than ideal shot. Had he allowed for the angle & aimed lower the result would likely have been a dead deer. Likely not DRT, but probly recovered that day.
Ammo is a PRODUCT. Deer don't read, or frequent Walmart or Academy. The box of ammo met the mfr's intent: It sold. Didn't meet the hunter's - didn't kill the animal (via what seems to be marginal placement).
A heavier, faster (or both) bullet or one that came apart in the lungs, hitting the same place at the same angle would have been more likely to have killed the animal that day.
Can we agree on that?
Who among us hasn't misjudged a shot thru inexperience, haste or adrenaline? I'd wager 'not many' is correct. How many of us have failed to learn from the experience? Likely 'not many' again.
TL;DR: This thread, in my opjnion only, seems to be paying less attention to the Indian than the arrow.
A 150 gr Corelokt out of a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 at 2300 fps MV adjusted for angle would have likely killed this deer that day.
Gday willybuck
On your choice of copper pills here's a little to digest
On the mushroom monos overall you need to keep speed up a bit more to get a consistent kill not saying they won't kill it's the speed they kill that concerns me especially below 2100 impact & I tried to keep them above the 2300/2400 mark
I also found once the petals were shed on some these pills brands due to meplat shape erratic terminal paths were observed in some critters & angles & this can / does cause issues especially bigger critters as in the smaller critters like whitetail size usually the pills exited before the turn would have happened
overall with what you mentioned on increasing pill weight as animal size increases is pretty sound as it stops those petals from shedding
We use to use this same thought on our asiatic buff & that 200 gr pill was great as once you shed the petals on bovine ( still have with a 200 gr but that's in scrubbies )
Your killing speed is compromised
We ended up going a different route as the results are improved from our once standard on these big guys & have run from the 120 to 180 ish ( twist limited back then ) weight of the shedding petal mono & we were surprised @ the penertration & wound channels with the impact to tip extremely impressive
These 2 were taken with a 151 gr shedding petal variety & they outperformed the 200 gr mushroom in every way in the ranges they are usually hunted @
The shedding petal design has a lower velocity working range & depending on the brand this seems to be in the realm of 1750 to 1900 for the majority (2300/2400 is the worst I've found with one brand ) with this being effective killing not just a pill opening or shedding , this isn't set in stone as new types coming out potentially will push this envelope but overall I don't personally think they can much lower but always willing to eat my words & hope they prove me wrong
yes some brands will open & shed way lower but they are crap on the whole & a frangible is a way better bet if your impacting below 1750 & the upper end is pushed a bit more than the petal variety & some higher than others here also
This In turn gives us a bigger velocity window to take our game @ yet some may never reach ea end of that & in the middle somewhere which is cool & pretty safe bet
Really no different than what you described with the corelox & every other pill regardless of type but that's only one part of killing efficiency but it's fairly sound from what I've witnessed especially good shot placement
Move to varying angles/ resistances now that's the rabbit hole that's turned into a warren for me & one that really sorts pills out on a useable velocity window
Cheers
Interesting in a good way & thanks for sharing sir
On your choice of copper pills here's a little to digest
On the mushroom monos overall you need to keep speed up a bit more to get a consistent kill not saying they won't kill it's the speed they kill that concerns me especially below 2100 impact & I tried to keep them above the 2300/2400 mark
I also found once the petals were shed on some these pills brands due to meplat shape erratic terminal paths were observed in some critters & angles & this can / does cause issues especially bigger critters as in the smaller critters like whitetail size usually the pills exited before the turn would have happened
overall with what you mentioned on increasing pill weight as animal size increases is pretty sound as it stops those petals from shedding
We use to use this same thought on our asiatic buff & that 200 gr pill was great as once you shed the petals on bovine ( still have with a 200 gr but that's in scrubbies )
Your killing speed is compromised
We ended up going a different route as the results are improved from our once standard on these big guys & have run from the 120 to 180 ish ( twist limited back then ) weight of the shedding petal mono & we were surprised @ the penertration & wound channels with the impact to tip extremely impressive
These 2 were taken with a 151 gr shedding petal variety & they outperformed the 200 gr mushroom in every way in the ranges they are usually hunted @
The shedding petal design has a lower velocity working range & depending on the brand this seems to be in the realm of 1750 to 1900 for the majority (2300/2400 is the worst I've found with one brand ) with this being effective killing not just a pill opening or shedding , this isn't set in stone as new types coming out potentially will push this envelope but overall I don't personally think they can much lower but always willing to eat my words & hope they prove me wrong
yes some brands will open & shed way lower but they are crap on the whole & a frangible is a way better bet if your impacting below 1750 & the upper end is pushed a bit more than the petal variety & some higher than others here also
This In turn gives us a bigger velocity window to take our game @ yet some may never reach ea end of that & in the middle somewhere which is cool & pretty safe bet
Really no different than what you described with the corelox & every other pill regardless of type but that's only one part of killing efficiency but it's fairly sound from what I've witnessed especially good shot placement
Move to varying angles/ resistances now that's the rabbit hole that's turned into a warren for me & one that really sorts pills out on a useable velocity window
Cheers
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Been there as well.
baldhunter
Well-Known Member
Getting back to the original post,it also shows you just how much a shoulder hit on a large animal reduces the size and shock of the wound channel once it passes through the shoulder.It really doesn't surprise me the 150gr Corelok didn't exit the stag.It is surprising he recovered and survived.Had the bullet just gone through the ribs before hitting the lungs,he probably would have quickly died and the bullet probably exited too.Actual shot placement is a big factor in bullet performance,however,in a hunting situation,things aren't always perfect the way we want it to be.I shot a stag with my 300 Win Mag using a 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip through the scapula,lungs and exiting behind the offside shoulder.From the enteral damage,you could tell the peak of the wound channel was after the hitting of the scapula bone and lung tissue.After passing through the lungs,you could tell the wound channel was getting much tighter before it made the exit behind the offside shoulder.He dropped right there on the spot.Here is a picture of the scapula.
Another stag killed with the 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from my 30-06.Same results dropped on the spot.Through the ribs,under the spine.
Here is a good video showing three different types of bullets and how they performed with a scapula embedded in a gel block at different yardages.
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/f...ting-lead-and-copper-bullets-in-ballistic-gel
Another stag killed with the 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from my 30-06.Same results dropped on the spot.Through the ribs,under the spine.
Here is a good video showing three different types of bullets and how they performed with a scapula embedded in a gel block at different yardages.
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/f...ting-lead-and-copper-bullets-in-ballistic-gel
All below is imo.
Copper based monos are an advance in game hunting tech.
Lighter weight means higher velocity out to typical hunting distance, not even counting Hammer Bullet Co's PDR. Monos tend to be tougher than most lead bullets so, along with higher velocity, typically achieve greater penetration than many - not all - jacketed lead designs.
As mfrs gain experience with them (and demand grows) higher mono ballistic coeffecients are appearing. Faster twist rates are more available in OTC rifles as well as custom barrels. And as you point out, the velocity range for desired terminal ballistics seems to be improving (esp. at the slower end).
Meaning mono bullets are more suitable for long range hunting than five, 10 and 20 years ago.
IIRC, no or maybe one lead smelter(s) still in operation in the CONUS. Considering suitability to purpose, availability & environmental concerns, the question may be "How long until copper monos are the majority of hunting bullets sold in the US market."
They're more costly - but not a lot more than 'premium' lead bullets. And compared to the overall cost of hunting, ammo cost is small.
My .05 (.02 adjusted for inflation)
Gday swhandldr
About the only thing I'd add is the consistency of the pills ability to work under varying resistances & that's when some monos really shine
Cheers
You had to put inflation in & spoil it
About the only thing I'd add is the consistency of the pills ability to work under varying resistances & that's when some monos really shine
Cheers
