For those who NEVER clean their bore, or almost never

[Alex Wheeler]

I think the same thing can be said about having a bore fouled with 5 or 10 or 20 shots. The fouling in the bore will ALWAYS be changing. When does it start to change the least from shot to shot? Maybe you have one of those bores that doesn't get consistent velocities until you've fouled it with 50-75 rounds and then it stays consistent through 2000 rounds. So why not let it go 500 then clean?

I just got a chrono, so I don't actually know how long it takes my barrel to really become consistent in velocity.

Because at a certain number of shots the fouling will be the same. If you tuned the rifle with 30 shots on a clean barrel, then hunt with 30 shots on a clean barrel. If you tuned it at 100, but now your at 300 its not going to be shooting the same. This is common practice in most accuracy minded shooting sports. Now if you have a rough bore that requires unusual treatment, then you have to do what you have to do. Id be saving up for a good barrel though. Life is too short to fight bad barrels LOL

 

[Tac-O]

That's a good practice even if you don't remove the copper often by cleaning. I carry a bore snake with me when hunting that is caliber specific to sweep the bore after each shot to remove abrasive carbon and powder residue. before the next hunt. If left in the barrel it will embed in the bullet and abrade the bore on it's way out.

If you don't clean a barrel this abrasive material is left in the barrel and every time you fire it it will increase the wear on the bore. Sweeping the bore after every shot is not always possible but doing it when you can can only help. Some say it doesn't matter because it is not that much, But if you clean a barrel and fire one shot, then push a dry patch through it, you will see just how much fouling from this material there is.

Dirty barrels wear out faster than clean barrels because there are abrasives left from the previous shot. and a clean barrel only has to deal with the copper that is softer than the barrel.

I believe in keeping a firearm in its best condition for longevity and performance. Yes It does require a little more time and maintenance, But in the long run it will last for many years and not let me down.

Just my opinion (Everyone has one).

J E CUSTOM

Last time I was at the range, I took my bolt out to look down the bore to make sure I wouldn't shoot my magneto speed sensor. I was shocked by how much leftover powder/soot there was in my bore. I don't know what if it's unburned powder, soot, carbon.... any idea on that? It's large, very visible particles. I've seen it before, but not as much as that. I think it was the powder/primer combo I was using.

How do you know these particles embed into the bullet? I would think the blast would knock them out before the bullet travels over them.

So if you're at the range, do you put a dry patch or snake down the bore between each shot to clear it of any of this debris?

Also,

 

[keithcandler]

So many things in rifles are about consistency. I want a fouled bore with a hunting rifle and I want to know how its going to shoot. The only way to do it consistently is to tune the rifle like you will use it. Foul the bore with 5 shots, then start tuning. Shoot 20-30 rounds and clean it. Do that every time. They when its time to hunt, foul with 5 shots and go hunting. Your now duplicating the condition the rifle was tuned in. If you never clean, you can never have consistency because the bore is always getting more and more fouled. Hard carbon builds up and solvents or brushes will not remove it.

Alex is indeed an expert, pay close attention to the last sentence, "Hard Carbon builds up and solvents and brushes will not remove it."

 

[Tac-O]

Because at a certain number of shots the fouling will be the same. If you tuned the rifle with 30 shots on a clean barrel, then hunt with 30 shots on a clean barrel. If you tuned it at 100, but now your at 300 its not going to be shooting the same. This is common practice in most accuracy minded shooting sports. Now if you have a rough bore that requires unusual treatment, then you have to do what you have to do. Id be saving up for a good barrel though. Life is too short to fight bad barrels LOL

I see what you mean. My 2000 round example was an extreme example. But if a person shoots their gun to 300 rounds before cleaning and knows their velocities and POIs are the same from round count 50 to round count 300, I would think that would be the preferable way to go since they wouldn't have to put a cleaning rod in their bore every 30 rounds. Do you get more reliable and repeatable results over a 3000 round span by cleaning every 30 or by cleaning every 200-300?

I've got a stainless Tikka barrel. It's not a high end barrel, but I consider it good. But just about every comment I've seen someone make about how clean their Tikka barrel likes to be is a statement that it shoots better when fouled quite a bit. So, being fairly new to this game and being a person that enjoy learning from experience, I enjoy experimenting as well as playing devil's advocate to gather as much insight and knowledge as possible. And if anything, I'll screw up my Tikka barrel and have a reason to get a high quality barrel sooner

 

[Tac-O]

And for anyone that has been around a long time and tried it ALL....

I just recently read Nathan Foster's books from this web site Ballisticstudies.com. For some bores, like a Tikka that likes to be fouled to shoot well, he recommends cleaning every 100-200 rounds. Regardless of whether the gun is cleaned every 20 or 100 or 200 rounds, he promotes "polishing" the throat area of the bore every 100 or 200 in order to keep the pores of the stainless closed and increase the life of the barrel by reducing fire cracking. This is done usually with a maroon 3m pad and then some JB's. What are people's thoughts on these treatments? @J E Custom @Alex Wheeler

 

[ButterBean]

And for anyone that has been around a long time and tried it ALL....

I just recently read Nathan Foster's books from this web site Ballisticstudies.com. For some bores, like a Tikka that likes to be fouled to shoot well, he recommends cleaning every 100-200 rounds. Regardless of whether the gun is cleaned every 20 or 100 or 200 rounds, he promotes "polishing" the throat area of the bore every 100 or 200 in order to keep the pores of the stainless closed and increase the life of the barrel by reducing fire cracking. This is done usually with a maroon 3m pad and then some JB's. What are people's thoughts on these treatments? @J E Custom @Alex Wheeler

The 3M pad is what I use

 

[J E Custom]

Last time I was at the range, I took my bolt out to look down the bore to make sure I wouldn't shoot my magneto speed sensor. I was shocked by how much leftover powder/soot there was in my bore. I don't know what if it's unburned powder, soot, carbon.... any idea on that? It's large, very visible particles. I've seen it before, but not as much as that. I think it was the powder/primer combo I was using.

How do you know these particles embed into the bullet? I would think the blast would knock them out before the bullet travels over them.

So if you're at the range, do you put a dry patch or snake down the bore between each shot to clear it of any of this debris?

Also,

If the bullet seal is good, the bullet will be ahead of the powder blast In the beginning and trap the fouling between the bullet and the bore. The tight fit doesn't allow the fouling to escape and is forced into the soft jacket and embedded. At that point it becomes an abrasive bullet much like the fire lapping ones although not as much abrasive.

If at the range and trying to shoot groups I don't patch between each shot, or when shooting matches because it is impractical, but every chance I get, I do. the more often you remove this fouling the better.

When I am doing load development, I clean between each group to allow the barrel cool down and make each load test start under the same conditions. I believe The test are not a true Representative of there performance if you keep stacking more fouling in the bore by continuing without cleaning, and this allows me to remove the fouling from the 5 shots, before the next 5 are fired.

A nylon brush and a cotton swab is normally all you need for 5 shots in a custom barrel after a quality break in is done, this kind of cleaning doesn't contribute to barrel wear.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Tac-O]

If the bullet seal is good, the bullet will be ahead of the powder blast In the beginning and trap the fouling between the bullet and the bore. The tight fit doesn't allow the fouling to escape and is forced into the soft jacket and embedded. At that point it becomes an abrasive bullet much like the fire lapping ones although not as much abrasive.

J E CUSTOM

Sorry, I meant blast as in the air in the barrel ahead of the bullet being displaced by the cartridge ignition and that air subsequently blowing the fouling out ahead of the bullet.

 

[J E Custom]

And for anyone that has been around a long time and tried it ALL....

I just recently read Nathan Foster's books from this web site Ballisticstudies.com. For some bores, like a Tikka that likes to be fouled to shoot well, he recommends cleaning every 100-200 rounds. Regardless of whether the gun is cleaned every 20 or 100 or 200 rounds, he promotes "polishing" the throat area of the bore every 100 or 200 in order to keep the pores of the stainless closed and increase the life of the barrel by reducing fire cracking. This is done usually with a maroon 3m pad and then some JB's. What are people's thoughts on these treatments? @J E Custom @Alex Wheeler

In my opinion, a barrel that needs fouling to shoot well has a rough bore with machine marks and is relying on the copper fouling to smooth it out. I also don't recommend any abrasive polishing of any part of the bore or the throat. let the bullets do that because they are more precise and don't Misshape or wear anything unevenly.

When I first started match shooting, Many of the competitors told me I needed to Lapp the bolt and the barrel for smoother operation With the available funds I couldn't risk removing anything so I cleaned often and in no time it was operating and shooting very well. the rifle will still shoot 1/2 MOA with iron sites and has just over 23,000 rounds through it. There is some throat wear, but not enough to hurt accuracy.

This rifle has been taken very good care of and cleaned as often as possible. The load and COAL remain the same. the rifle has never had a scope mounted on it so I'm not sure how good it really is.

This is just My experience and opinion.

J E CUSTOM

 

[J E Custom]

Sorry, I meant blast as in the air in the barrel ahead of the bullet being displaced by the cartridge ignition and that air subsequently blowing the fouling out ahead of the bullet.

I'm Sure that some of the small/light stuff gets pushed out depending on the burn quality of the powder but enough stays in to cause the problem. Also the cleaner and smoother the bore is the better because it doesn't stick as well it a copper fouled barrel.

A bore scope is a good tool for looking at the amount of fouling left in a bore.

J E CUSTOM

 

[keithcandler]

I take accuracy very serious and I don't have a bore scope so I'm ignorant? IMO if you need a bore scope to tell you what's wrong.......... Oh Well, A good jig and a tight patch will tell you a bunch if you pay attention, I'm sure a bore scope is a useful tool but is not necessary to be serious about accuracy

This statement is the truth, "Clean patches are not an indicator that hard carbon deposits are not present."

First thing you learn when you get a bore scope is just how true the above statement is....humbling to say the least. At this moment, your education in bore cleaning begins. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

As carbon becomes super cooked from heat, a patch and solvent will not touch it, patch will show clean when pushed out the muzzle, even with tight fitting punch type jags.

 

[Tac-O]

In my opinion, a barrel that needs fouling to shoot well has a rough bore with machine marks and is relying on the copper fouling to smooth it out. I also don't recommend any abrasive polishing of any part of the bore or the throat. let the bullets do that because they are more precise and don't Misshape or wear anything unevenly.

When I first started match shooting, Many of the competitors told me I needed to Lapp the bolt and the barrel for smoother operation With the available funds I couldn't risk removing anything so I cleaned often and in no time it was operating and shooting very well. the rifle will still shoot 1/2 MOA with iron sites and has just over 23,000 rounds through it. There is some throat wear, but not enough to hurt accuracy.

This rifle has been taken very good care of and cleaned as often as possible. The load and COAL remain the same. the rifle has never had a scope mounted on it so I'm not sure how good it really is.

This is just My experience and opinion.

J E CUSTOM

23,000 rounds? What cartridge?

 

[Tac-O]

This statement is the truth, "Clean patches are not an indicator that hard carbon deposits are not present."

First thing you learn when you get a bore scope is just how true the above statement is....humbling to say the least. At this moment, your education in bore cleaning begins. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

As carbon becomes super cooked from heat, a patch and solvent will not touch it, patch will show clean when pushed out the muzzle, even with tight fitting punch type jags.

What about boretech c4?

 

[Bob Wright]

My 7RM at a fouling session and to determine POI prior to my deer hunt. 3 shots only. Squeeky clean bore. Krieger stainless barrel. 200 yards. First shot out of group, next two touching.
This rifle at 20 rounds will begin to open up groups slightly.
I clean regularly down to bare metal. Picture is rotated 90° CW. Sorry...
When I hear discussion of 20 to 50 rounds needed to get accuracy back, my engineering mind thinks the bore of that rifle needs to be coked and smoothed with round after round to get the barrel smoothed and symmetry back just to get some normalcy on a target.
Why did my barrel do it in one fouler then? Are these high fouler barrels exhibiting a poor condition of manufacturing or worn excessively.....
I was monitoring with a borescope on the 280AI in the chamber and barrel for carbon ring, etc. At about round 30 I noticed the carbon ring was beginning to get the peaks of carbon flattened by the bullet, and the surrounding carbon voids were starting to fill in. That was enough for me to say the experiment was over and cleaning was past due.
Lastly, my lazy son in law, with no more than 100 rounds since last cleaned, his 243 had a terrible carbon ring. When he switched to factory ammo from our reloads he told me before he blew the two primers, the bolt was heavy on closing. So, a slightly longer case trim from the factory pinched that case mouse and he went WAAAY over pressure and completely destroyed both cases and a miracle we got the bolt opened twice.
I clean everything I own repeatedly after hunting season or after testing. For a lot of reasons....
All my rifles only need one fouler to get in the group.
I'm in JE Customs and Alex Wheelers camp, and I just hunt. I don't compete.