Why do bullet makers ignor .257 and .277?

[sportmuaythai]

When I was hunting feverishly, 270 win was the holy grail cartridge. 257 Weatherby was the big brother of 25-06. Then, Nosler Partition was savior. Now with the advent of LRH, bullet makers almost ignor these two calibers, concentrating on 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm. Does the word metric bring mysterious attracion to shooters?
Another thing that I was taught to believe. Long shank bullet equates more bearing surface, causing friction and heat, resulting in barrel wear and velocity robbing (diminishing returns).
Now most efficient bullets are high BC without regard to the long shank theory. I was a strong believer of not less than 3,000fps muzzle velocity for violent shocking power, relying on Nosler Partition core to plough thru. LRH no longer talk about hydrolic shock that Roy tauted. Please kindly enlighten.

 

[rscott5028]

Long range hunting is still a tiny segment of the firearms industry.

Some custom bullet makers such as Wildcat tried and gave up on high BC .277 and .257 bullets. Apparently the demand wasn't there.

Matrix still produces 165gr (.738 BC) and 175gr (.782 BC) .277 bullets.

270 Win and 257 WBY will perform just as well as they did 50 years ago and better in many respects. They killed everything in North America back then and still do.

Hydrostatic shock is over-rated. You need sufficient velocity for the bullet to expand properly. Beyond that, bullet placement and penetriation does the damage to vital organs.

If you want hydrostatic shock, get a 7STW.

If barrel life is a concern, try 6BR.

If you don't like metric, go with a 30 cal.

If you want the really high BCs, try the 300gr Berger 338 Hybrid.

Rifles are just compromises which is why there are so many to choose from.

That's also what keeps it interesting.

Happy hunting.
Richard

 

[bigngreen]

The main issue with the 25 and 270 cal is the chosen common twist rate, it's hard to push a bullet maker to make a bullet for only custom barrel twists. That said Matrix is doing that with these cals, and there are some others coming.

High BC bullets are overall longer but they generally have less bearing surface compared to a comparable flat base bullet due to the long ogive and long boat tail. I've loaded a lot of 140 Accubonds and Bergers in my 270 WSM and the Berger builds less pressure and speed due to so much less bearing surface.

As far as hydrostatic shock goes, a good many are just shooting beyond the range where a bullet will have enough velocity to blow and cause massive hydrostatic shock, most are killing the old fashioned way by blowing a hole through the pump or lungs or through the spine and relying on direct bullet or fragmented bone to do the damage.

 

[sportmuaythai]

Long range hunting is still a tiny segment of the firearms industry.

Some custom bullet makers such as Wildcat tried and gave up on high BC .277 and .257 bullets. Apparently the demand wasn't there.

Matrix still produces 165gr (.738 BC) and 175gr (.782 BC) .277 bullets.

270 Win and 257 WBY will perform just as well as they did 50 years ago and better in many respects. They killed everything in North America back then and still do.

Hydrostatic shock is over-rated. You need sufficient velocity for the bullet to expand properly. Beyond that, bullet placement and penetriation does the damage to vital organs.

Happy hunting.
Richard

I wouldn'argue with you about what 270 win can accomplish. I've killed thick antlered moose 66" and a grizzly that got my guide the silver buckle that year, in Yukon. Then I killed an elk in Montana, and another in Arizona, plus my biggest eland in Zambia, and my biggest well maned lion in Tanzania. My earlier, much better maned but quite smaller in body lion, was shot a year before with .375 H&H, in the same area. Both were shot in similar condition at similar distance. They expired similarly, and you couldn't tell which caliber did a better job.

The main issue with the 25 and 270 cal is the chosen common twist rate, it's hard to push a bullet maker to make a bullet for only custom barrel twists. That said Matrix is doing that with these cals, and there are some others coming.

High BC bullets are overall longer but they generally have less bearing surface compared to a comparable flat base bullet due to the long ogive and long boat tail. I've loaded a lot of 140 Accubonds and Bergers in my 270 WSM and the Berger builds less pressure and speed due to so much less bearing surface.

As far as hydrostatic shock goes, a good many are just shooting beyond the range where a bullet will have enough velocity to blow and cause massive hydrostatic shock, most are killing the old fashioned way by blowing a hole through the pump or lungs or through the spine and relying on direct bullet or fragmented bone to do the damage.

Thanks to both of you for taking time to reply to my post. I'll be looking to try out the .277 165GR VLD from Matrix. If my Sako will stabilize same, I may get it rechambered into an improved version. BTW, I previously hunted when 4x scope was the norm, and if you can't see enough to shoot, you stalk closer. That's why I'm a believer in hydrostatic shock, and nosler PT. I'm now hoping to extend my range to <700 yards, so will relegate to high BC with thin jacket bullets.

 

[rscott5028]

The main issue with the 25 and 270 cal is the chosen common twist rate, it's hard to push a bullet maker to make a bullet for only custom barrel twists. That said Matrix is doing that with these cals, and there are some others coming.

High BC bullets are overall longer but they generally have less bearing surface compared to a comparable flat base bullet due to the long ogive and long boat tail. I've loaded a lot of 140 Accubonds and Bergers in my 270 WSM and the Berger builds less pressure and speed due to so much less bearing surface.

As far as hydrostatic shock goes, a good many are just shooting beyond the range where a bullet will have enough velocity to blow and cause massive hydrostatic shock, most are killing the old fashioned way by blowing a hole through the pump or lungs or through the spine and relying on direct bullet or fragmented bone to do the damage.

Great points.

I'm not sure I could do justice to the history. But, a lot of the old cartridges evolved when bullet construction wasn't as advanced. Hence, twists were slow (e.g. 1:12 for 257 WBY vs 1:10 today) because a 257 WBY would have shread the old bullets with a fast twist.

Now that bullets have evolved along with slower burning powders, you can push the longer/heavier bullets to higher velocities with a fast enough twist to stabilize them.

-- richard

 

[royinidaho]

Hey guys, a very good discussion.

Many moons ago I was thoroughly indoctrinated by O'Connor. Never been deprogrammed.

This lingering mental condition took me from 35 years of shooting only a 270 Win at everything from chucks to moose to shooting a 270 Allen Magnum.

For ya'll shooting lesser, possibly more sensible 277 cartridges, bullets so far mentioned will do very well. Especially Wildcats and Matrix.

However.... in an 8 twist 3 groove bore at extreme velocity non of them cut the mustard.

Wildcats and Matrix won't hold together, "in my bore." Note: @ about 900 rounds of extreme loads the bore scope says the bore/throat is still pretty good.

I haven't shot Matrix offerings as when I asked the Matrix man informed me I'd have troubles.

Original Richard Graves Wildcat 169.5s took effort to perfect and he had it down pat. The secret was the lot of jackets he stumbled upon. Those exact jackets, me thinks, became unavailable. Tight wad short term thinkin'' me only purchased a couple of hundred. Plus it was so much fun shooting them instead of using the rig as a long range HUNTING rifle, I burned through them very quickly. (Was worth it!)

All nosler bullets will shoot very well with no physical integrity problems but have BCs that are similar to bricks when compared to high bc offerings.

A 150 NBT starting at 3600 sound nifty but wouldn't do for much more than a coyote @ 1500 or so. It makes only small unimpressive divots in the dirt at 1400 and will break only small rocks.

Hornady's 140 gr BTSP will shoot well and hold together at any velocity I can push it. Again pretty poor bc for extreme range.

Berger's at these extreme velocitys won't hold together either.

I otta rename the rifle "Dusty"

All of that said, the problem boils down to there being too many other calibers around 257 and 277 that get all the attention. Rifle manufactures and bullet makers are in business, business being a key word, to make a living. Until there are enough 257 and 277 extreme shooters to make a significant portion of the market we're gonna have to live with what we have. Plus the 270 WSM isn't all that shabby.

As was said LRH shooter number are miniscule. We're going to have to continue to create our own world.

Folks such as I are not in "business" but in quest of some kind of fuzzy dream. I had this rifle made with a specific purpose in mind and by darned its gonna do it. Lack of factory bullets not withstanding!

Guess what? Elmer Keith was my other look up to guy. Thus my only other custom rifle is a 375 Allen Magnum. Guess what, the same bullet problem There's only a finite number of SMKs out there. This time, I have my share.

 

[sportmuaythai]

Thanks royinidaho, I must admit that I quitted hunting more than a decade ago, having collected just about every trophy I dreamed of. This LR thing got me interested in shooting again. I think I need to get into one of the LR shooting class to get me lusted for a new dedicated LR rifle.
I checked Berger's site for their hunting bullets, and this is what I got.


6.5mm 140gr BC 0.612
.277 140gr BC 0.487
7mm 140gr BC 0.510
Above are all VLD hunting bullets. This is why I started this thread. From watching video clips on long shots, I hear they praise BC of above 0.6 as minimum.

 

[royinidaho]

I hear they praise BC of above 0.6 as minimum.

Some have surely stated that. I fully agree. I don't feel the drop is the major problem with the lesser bc. Its retained energy a bit second but wind effect being the major consideration.

I'm working on an innovation that will, when perfected, (have some out for testing.....come on guys start shootin' ) will result in you being able to make yourself a 160 class 277 bullet that with a bc in the high 0.6xx range (???).

These are based on a well accepted, proven bullets with ready availability which will hold together in about any barrel configuration you can pass it through at extreme velocities.

I'd have the durn things either fully proven or have given up by now but for being away from shooting/testing for 18 months. Next spring I'll have it fully proven or will have paid one heck of a tuition.......again.

 

[rscott5028]

To state what Roy did in other terms...

Since you're dialing for drop at a pretty accurate, measured and/or laser ranged distance anyway, BC isn't very important.

What is important is remaining supersonic to your target and having consistent quality bullets. And, a high BC will help you accomplish that.

However, it's nearly impossible to accurately read what the wind is doing all the way to your target. So, there will be some degree of error in your wind call. The lower your BC is, the more it will exacerbate your inability to judge the wind precisely. The problem is twice as bad when the wind is shifting left and right.

Since there are plenty of bullets for various calibers in the +.600 range, then why settle for something less than that if your primary objective is long range? If you don't compete and you only punch paper, you can wait for a still morning to shoot. Otherwise, you have to practice and be prepared to shoot in the wind.

Varmint hunters also need to be concerned about velocity (time to impact) since their targets are often moving.

-- richard

 

[bigngreen]

Thanks royinidaho, I must admit that I quitted hunting more than a decade ago, having collected just about every trophy I dreamed of. This LR thing got me interested in shooting again. I think I need to get into one of the LR shooting class to get me lusted for a new dedicated LR rifle.
I checked Berger's site for their hunting bullets, and this is what I got.


6.5mm 140gr BC 0.612
.277 140gr BC 0.487
7mm 140gr BC 0.510
Above are all VLD hunting bullets. This is why I started this thread. From watching video clips on long shots, I hear they praise BC of above 0.6 as minimum.

Long range hunting has brought me back to rifle hunting in full force, I was almost done hunting, it was kinda getting boring and I enjoyed just calling for others or spotting and really only hunted to bring home some meat and cull elk and deer. Long range hunting is full on awesome, it motivates the thinker and pushes a guy to learn new skill which I enjoy very much!

If you have a love for the 270 I would strongly suggest keeping track of Roys project, and if you have a 1-10 twist get your hands on some Matrix 165's! The Matrix 165 is running around a .650-660 BC and we're shooting them at 2835 fps in a 270 Win, pushing them and I have a 270 WSM set up to shoot them at 3053 idling them along, the 150 Berger will run nicely at 3250fps. Next will be to set up a barrel for the 175 Matrix with a .700+ BC Then I'll move on to the 338's also looking at a 375 but that bumps me into a higher tax bracket
This can turn into a severely acute addiction, enjoy!!!!!

 

[Kevin Thomas]

simple answer here; the 6s, 6.5s and 7s are all used by competitive shooters, and that's the real driving force behind the Long Range developments. Aside from this, the .257" and .277" are strictly American bore sizes and see virtually no use anywhere else in the world. Not saying they're bad, or that they won't do anything just as well as the others, but that's the real reason behind the lack of response.

The "chicken or egg" debate that's also been pointed out regarding twist rate is another. Easily overcome, but who makes the first move? Tough to get a bullet maker to tool up and produce a bullet for three guys who've rifled up some 1x7" barrels for their 257 Ackleys when they're the only ones who can use them.