Why Berger?

[DRock]

This was my first big game animal with a berger 168gr hybrid hunter. This is the exit hole. Definitely killed the pronghorn but I lost the meat on the front half of this goat. He ran about 50-70 yards after the hit and piled up. Shot was right at 300 yards. I have mixed feelings about Bergers. They shoot awesome and definitely kill game. My concern is that I have made a poor shot a time or two and on something larger than a speed goat if I do not get an exit wound, I really want a blood trail. We are all chasing that Unicorn, right? A rifle that shoots over 3000fps with long barrel life and light recoil? An all purpose bullet that works equally well at 800 yards as at 100? I personally dont feel the Berger is an all-purpose bullet. I feel more comfortable with it at longer ranges. I think the design of the Federal Terminal Ascent (Formerly Edge TLR) is a better all round design. I killed a large mulie, an Oryx, and a prongorn with the TLR last fall and it performed flawless (longest shot was 400 yards- closest was 175 yards). I shot very good groups with it out to 800 yards in my 280 Ackley. Honestly, I think what shoots best in your rifle and gives you great confidence is more important than the actual bullet. But-- it gives me more confidence when I know I have a tough bullet that will do the job and it shoots great from my rifle. And when we talk about accuracy- technically Bergers are Match bullets and print very tight groups. Something like the Federal Terminal Ascent being bonded it will be inherently less accurate due to the design being around terminal performance not just accuracy. However- I feel I can accept a bullet for hunting that shoots MOA when another can give me 1/2 MOA but may not be as well suited for game. My 2 cents but this was a great discussion and I have no problem with anyone hunting with Bergers. I think there are enough case studies just in this thread that proves they are a legitimate hunting bullet.

 

[coop2564]

There is a reason so many use berger bullets...they work very well at being very accurate and very deadly at long range. If you shoot 300 yds and closer most shots barnes or accubond would be a better choice.

 

[memtb]

With the advent of target bullets and the "thin-skinned" hunting bullets being accepted for hunting.....the little known skill-set of "stalking farther away" from game is now being perfected! memtb

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

Memtb -- I just spit my coffee on my keyboard ! When the Chinese let me back into WY, I will have to try that. As I understand it, you spot the Antelope at 200 Yards and then drive at least 1/2 mile away before shooting ? Suppose I'll have to give up shooting them @60 feet with my 1899 6.5x55 ?

 

[bigngreen]

For hunting use, I ask the same.....why? memtb

Because they completely out perform the bullets we used before.

With the advent of target bullets and the "thin-skinned" hunting bullets being accepted for hunting.....the little known skill-set of "stalking farther away" from game is now being perfected! memtb

Well at least we do not have to work on our running raking shots to try to get enough Barnes bullets through an animal to kill it. It's been nice to just flip one round in the chamber and fill a tag with no drama!!

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

And you killed how many with Barnes ? My count is pushing 100 and never one lost. 2 holes are better than a closed over one with shrapnel everywhere in the animal. I killed 100s of woodchucks with match bullets. They "sloshed" when you picked them up, never an exit hole.

 

[wbm]

1899 6.5x55

I have one of those. What scope mount are you using.

 

[Jud96]

Berger's and ELDs literally shred the internals of game. It's like a deer grenade going off inside. Stuff doesn't tend to go far after its lungs are liquified and heart full of shrapnel. Berger's are also are the most consistent and accurate bullets I've ever used. Hornady ELDs are a close second to the Berger's. Most bullets will kill what you're shooting at, some just do a better job at it. It never made sense to me to brag about how much energy and mass my bullet had when it hit the hillside after exciting the deer I just shot. I'd rather have the bullet blow to pieces inside its organs and drop it where it stands than follow a blood trail. That's just me though...

 

[bigngreen]

And you killed how many with Barnes ? My count is pushing 100 and never one lost. 2 holes are better than a closed over one with shrapnel everywhere in the animal. I killed 100s of woodchucks with match bullets. They "sloshed" when you picked them up, never an exit hole.

I've killed a lot of stuff with a Barnes, all our whole group used them for years, everyone has abandoned them after more lethal bullets have come on the market!!

The problem is people only count the ones they recover, and what about the "must have missed" or "must have just gazed them" , that's where I found guys actually have a better hit percentage that they thought, saw it on large hay feilds where you thought they missed but get up on a hay stack and watch and a half hour to hour later one tips over and you see the herd scatter a little and you find them. Changing bullets stopped that, one round go pick it up.

Changing bullets was a God send, we saw a stark change in lethality and recovery when we changed, which is a gain for both hunters and the game, why would that be an issue?

 

[gillettehunter]

This is always a debate when bullets are talked about. This is from another forum and is my post on Bergers over the last couple of years:
I will start this with a few observations. All bullets are designed with a use in mind. There is no one size fits all in bullets. I have no problems with other bullets. I have taken Barnes TTSX's and Nosler accubonds to Africa. Both have served me well. This last trip I took Bergers. I usually get extremely good accuracy and good results with them. Bergers are often used in longer range hunting and are designed to expand reliably at lower velocities. If you plan to use them I will strongly suggest that you heed the next observations:
1) Use heavy for caliber bullets. I used 180 grainers in my 7mm SAUM. If you use a faster bigger .28 caliber cartridges then use their 195 grainers. In .30 caliber use the 215 grain hybrid. Easy to load and deadly effective on game. In a .26 caliber use the 140's or 156's. Apply the same to other calibers.
2) Always check the points. Bergers are a hollow point design. Occasionally the point will be "clogged or closed". That bullet, if not opened, will act like a solid and pencil through an animal. A small drill bit should be used to make sure they are all open. If closed then use that one for practice or drill it open.
3) Do not expect reliable expansion at much over 3000 fps. You are more likely to get over expansion at higher velocities along with poor penetration. My SAUM runs the 180's at 2900 fps. That is about right. My .30 Nosler runs the 215's at 2990. Works well too. I would not run them at 3200 fps and expect reliable close range expansion.
On to the point of this post. 16 animals of assorted sizes were taken with my 7 SAUM and the 180 gr bullet's on my last trip to Africa. They are as follows:
1) Cape eland cow at 469 yards. Hit slightly further back than wanted. Down and dead quickly.
2)Cape eland bull at 511 yds. Heart shot. Dead in less than 20 yds. Pretty impressive.
3)Springbock at 175-200 yds. Broadside shot slightly back and high. Down in its tracks.
4)Duiker spotlighted at maybe 40 yds quartering to me. High shoulder down in his tracks.
5)Vaal Rhebuck at 313 yds. Hit way back top of back. Spine hit. Down in his tracks.
6) Klipspringer at 269 yds. A little far back and high. Down and done in place.
7)Blesbuck cow at 130 yds? Back a little and a little high. Down immediately with no fuss.
8) Bull Livingston eland. Huge animal. 75 yds. First hit was high shoulder. Staggered him. Went perhaps 75 yds and He appeared to be staggering when I hit him again up high mid body which put him down.
9)Hartebeest cow at 200 yds. Quartering slightly to me. Hit mid way up behind the shoulder. Went 40-50 yds.
10)2nd Hartebeest cow. Broadside at 80-90 yds. Hit behind shoulder. Went 30 yds or so.
11)Hartebeest bull at 150-170 yds quartering to me. Low shoulder into the heart. Went maybe 60 yds.
12) Bushbuck at 200 yds or a little more. Hit a little high behind the shoulder. Went perhaps 30 yds.
Mike, a friend used my SAUM for the Zambian hunt portion:
1)Waterbuck at 150 yds broadside. Hit behind shoulder. Went about 70 yds.
2)Puku at 80-90 yds perhaps. Quartering hard away. Hit in front of hind quarter lining up on far shoulder. Went about 40 yds.
3)Bushbuck at 120 yds. Broadside. Behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
4)Lechwe at 230 yds. Behind shoulder half way up. Down in its tracks. Kicked twice.
I will add the following NA animals for additional consideration:
A) 6.5-06 w/ 140 grain bullet. Bighorn ram at 100 yds. Broadside. Hit back too far. Got liver. Went perhaps 100 yds.
B) 180 in the SAUM. Antelope at 130 yds. A little high behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
C)180 in SAUM Whitetail doe. 75 yds facing me. Down in her tracks.
D) 180 in SAUM WT buck. 300 yds. 1 shot in leg and one mid body. Went perhaps 30 yds.
E) 215 gr in .30 Nosler. Bull moose at just over 100 yds. Quartering to me. In front of shoulder. Went less than 20 yds.
F) 6.5 SS w/ 156 gr. Whitetail buck at 20 yds. Quartering away. High behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
G) 6.5 w/ 156 gr Pronghorn buck. Broadside. Hit slightly low behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
H) 6.5 w/ 156 gr. Pronghorn doe at 325 yds. Behind shoulder a touch high. Down in her tracks.
Notice that I needed more than 1 shot on a wt buck that I screwed up on and the Livingston eland that likely didn't need it.
Bruce

 

[nicholasjohn]

This is always a debate when bullets are talked about. This is from another forum and is my post on Bergers over the last couple of years:
I will start this with a few observations. All bullets are designed with a use in mind. There is no one size fits all in bullets. I have no problems with other bullets. I have taken Barnes TTSX's and Nosler accubonds to Africa. Both have served me well. This last trip I took Bergers. I usually get extremely good accuracy and good results with them. Bergers are often used in longer range hunting and are designed to expand reliably at lower velocities. If you plan to use them I will strongly suggest that you heed the next observations:
1) Use heavy for caliber bullets. I used 180 grainers in my 7mm SAUM. If you use a faster bigger .28 caliber cartridges then use their 195 grainers. In .30 caliber use the 215 grain hybrid. Easy to load and deadly effective on game. In a .26 caliber use the 140's or 156's. Apply the same to other calibers.
2) Always check the points. Bergers are a hollow point design. Occasionally the point will be "clogged or closed". That bullet, if not opened, will act like a solid and pencil through an animal. A small drill bit should be used to make sure they are all open. If closed then use that one for practice or drill it open.
3) Do not expect reliable expansion at much over 3000 fps. You are more likely to get over expansion at higher velocities along with poor penetration. My SAUM runs the 180's at 2900 fps. That is about right. My .30 Nosler runs the 215's at 2990. Works well too. I would not run them at 3200 fps and expect reliable close range expansion.
On to the point of this post. 16 animals of assorted sizes were taken with my 7 SAUM and the 180 gr bullet's on my last trip to Africa. They are as follows:
1) Cape eland cow at 469 yards. Hit slightly further back than wanted. Down and dead quickly.
2)Cape eland bull at 511 yds. Heart shot. Dead in less than 20 yds. Pretty impressive.
3)Springbock at 175-200 yds. Broadside shot slightly back and high. Down in its tracks.
4)Duiker spotlighted at maybe 40 yds quartering to me. High shoulder down in his tracks.
5)Vaal Rhebuck at 313 yds. Hit way back top of back. Spine hit. Down in his tracks.
6) Klipspringer at 269 yds. A little far back and high. Down and done in place.
7)Blesbuck cow at 130 yds? Back a little and a little high. Down immediately with no fuss.
8) Bull Livingston eland. Huge animal. 75 yds. First hit was high shoulder. Staggered him. Went perhaps 75 yds and He appeared to be staggering when I hit him again up high mid body which put him down.
9)Hartebeest cow at 200 yds. Quartering slightly to me. Hit mid way up behind the shoulder. Went 40-50 yds.
10)2nd Hartebeest cow. Broadside at 80-90 yds. Hit behind shoulder. Went 30 yds or so.
11)Hartebeest bull at 150-170 yds quartering to me. Low shoulder into the heart. Went maybe 60 yds.
12) Bushbuck at 200 yds or a little more. Hit a little high behind the shoulder. Went perhaps 30 yds.
Mike, a friend used my SAUM for the Zambian hunt portion:
1)Waterbuck at 150 yds broadside. Hit behind shoulder. Went about 70 yds.
2)Puku at 80-90 yds perhaps. Quartering hard away. Hit in front of hind quarter lining up on far shoulder. Went about 40 yds.
3)Bushbuck at 120 yds. Broadside. Behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
4)Lechwe at 230 yds. Behind shoulder half way up. Down in its tracks. Kicked twice.
I will add the following NA animals for additional consideration:
A) 6.5-06 w/ 140 grain bullet. Bighorn ram at 100 yds. Broadside. Hit back too far. Got liver. Went perhaps 100 yds.
B) 180 in the SAUM. Antelope at 130 yds. A little high behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
C)180 in SAUM Whitetail doe. 75 yds facing me. Down in her tracks.
D) 180 in SAUM WT buck. 300 yds. 1 shot in leg and one mid body. Went perhaps 30 yds.
E) 215 gr in .30 Nosler. Bull moose at just over 100 yds. Quartering to me. In front of shoulder. Went less than 20 yds.
F) 6.5 SS w/ 156 gr. Whitetail buck at 20 yds. Quartering away. High behind shoulder. Down in his tracks.
G) 6.5 w/ 156 gr Pronghorn buck. Broadside. Hit slightly low behind shoulder. Went 25 yds.
H) 6.5 w/ 156 gr. Pronghorn doe at 325 yds. Behind shoulder a touch high. Down in her tracks.
Notice that I needed more than 1 shot on a wt buck that I screwed up on and the Livingston eland that likely didn't need it.
Bruce

Your first comment addresses what I think is the key point, Sir. When using a highly frangible bullet, whether it be Bergers or anything else with a thin jacket up front, I think the answer is to use one that is heavy ( and long ) for its diameter. With a long & heavy bullet, if/when the front half fragments, there is still a long shaft remaining for further penetration. There seems to be no real need for a balled-up mass of metal on the front end, like controlled expansion bullets are designed to provide - just the bullet shank is enough. It's not just for breaking bones and providing exit wounds, either. A flat-fronted bullet shank tears up plenty of soft tissue ( like internal organs ) and does plenty to make a nice wound channel. This is why the hard-cast lead bullets kill so well. ( Keith-style bullets are known for this, even at handgun velocities.) It's also why the Hammer bullet have the reputation for being good killers. The big bonus I see here is that with the level of accuracy these bullets are known for, they probably end up in the right spot on the animal pretty often as well. This, of course, helps enormously in the killing equation.

 

[6.5-300 BEE]

I have one of those. What scope mount are you using.

That a Swede sniper scope mount with a German scope. Guessing the Danes "borrowed" a German scope.

These folks make an exact reproduction. You also need to bend the bolt.

Swedish Mauser

Swedish Mauser Sniper Parts and Accessories

www.accumounts.com

 

[wbm]

Thanks!

 

[Pdvdh]

I've got quite some Berger bullets on my reloading room shelves. .284, .308, and .338.

They've had their tips uniformed and countersunk with Kevin Cram's meplat uniforming and countersinking tools. All in the effort to ensure reliable expansion. I believe that effort was successful. At least all the ones I hit game animals with after processing the tips expanded on game animals. Which was an improvement from my prior experiences. Those that have followed Berger bullet threads in this Forum over the years, may remember that I was the first (to the best of my belief) to raise the issue of the closed tips on some of Bergers bullets being a suspected cause of some Bergers full metal jacketing thru game animals (back in 2012). This link will lead to the Thread where I presented my original findings and concerns, and where Berger's Eric Stecker initially responded to them... Shortly after that post, most avid Berger bullet guys began checking the tips of their bullets prior to use, to ensure they weren't closed. They either cull the closed tips for target use and sight-in use, or open the tips with drill bits prior to use on game animals.

Pics of Berger Bullets NOT Performing????

I am reading this thread for the first time today and am certainly concerned. This is not the only report of such an occurrence but one of our greatest challenges is that these reports are few compared to the literally millions of hunting bullets we've sold since they were introduced in 2005...

www.longrangehunting.com

So even though I was successful in eliminating the failures to expand with my Berger bullets, I tired of the meat shredding. Last straw was a heart shot caribou at 720yds with the 300gr OTM from my .338 Rogue (version of Lapua Improved). The bullet simply caused too much shoulder meat damage for my liking, even though the line of penetration of the bullet largely avoided the shoulder muscle, and bullet velocity at impact distance was relatively low. To each their own. I struggled with the performance of these bullets for too long. I'd had enough. Yes, I had some positive experiences, but too many disappointments on a percentage of use basis to continue with them. To each their own.

I have no plans to ever shoot another game animal with them. I should probably put them up for sale, along with the Kevin Cram Meplat Uniforming tools. No use for them for hunting, and don't need the meplat uniforming tools for the bullets I now hunt with.

For those interested in accurate bullets that both reduce bullet-caused meat carnage AND provide very lethal bullet performance on big game, I'm comfortable recommending the Badlands Precision Bulldozer bullets (based on my personal experiences), or the Hammer line of bullets (based on multiple accounts from many different users on this Forum). Both bullets are lathe-turned copper monolithics. These copper monolithics greatly reduce (around 80-90% reduction) meat shredding and carnage, compared to fragile lead jacketed bullets. And deep penetration is assured. The lathe turned copper-turned monolithics cost more per bullet, which could be an issue for busting a bunch of rocks on the hillsides while practicing in the hinterlands. But I find bullet costs are a pretty minimal expense, compared to all the other equipment I purchase, plus the other non-equipment costs I incur, - associated with my long range hunting.

Again, to each his own. World peace...