What's happening to this brass?

[eod.mickelson]

Just picked up an ugly annealer, and am learning how to anneal brass. I did two test batches of cheap Hornady 6.5 creedmoor and it all went perfectly. I loaded up my 300 Norma Lapua brass and set it up the same way, lights off, flame pointed right where it's supposed to be, and first 20 rounds went perfectly. Then I started seeing a green flame on pieces every once and a while. Those pieces came out with a yellow ring (see picture). After that about 1/3 we're the yellow ring and 2/3 we're fine looking. Any ideas what caused it and if these pieces are torched? Thank you for any inputs.

 

[Tac-O]

Just picked up an ugly annealer, and am learning how to anneal brass. I did two test batches of cheap Hornady 6.5 creedmoor and it all went perfectly. I loaded up my 300 Norma Lapua brass and set it up the same way, lights off, flame pointed right where it's supposed to be, and first 20 rounds went perfectly. Then I started seeing a green flame on pieces every once and a while. Those pieces came out with a yellow ring (see picture). After that about 1/3 we're the yellow ring and 2/3 we're fine looking. Any ideas what caused it and if these pieces are torched? Thank you for any inputs.

If I remember correctly, I think every piece I've overcooked by a lot had a green flame.

Your case on the right in the picture does look overcooked to me

 

[eod.mickelson]

If I remember correctly, I think every piece I've overcooked by a lot had a green flame.

Your case on the right in the picture does look overcooked to me

Is there any reason it would only overcook some but not all brass? And how can I tell if it's toast?

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

Did you clean the brass before annealing? If there is any film/contamination on the brass it will come up with different colors.

This looks like heated too much.
In your "Brass Case" I think Yellow color is from Zinc. You may have Cooked your brass too hot and pulled the Zinc out of the brass.
Brass is made out of 67% Copper & 33% Zinc.
Cartridge Brass Cases have different % depending on the manufacture.
Yellow is the color of Zink heated.
Green is the color of Copper heated.
You also saw a "Green" color in the flame so you were cooking the Cooper out.
Thanks
Len & Jill

 

[just_jon]

^^^THIS^^^

The amount of time required varies by manufacturer and caliber. I use 700 degree Tempilaq applied the the neck and shoulder determine the speed where it reached 700 degrees as indicated by a change in color. You can also apply 400 degree Tempilaq to the base of the case to ensure you do not overheat that critical area. Be sure to note the unit's speed setting for future reference.

 

[eod.mickelson]

Did you clean the brass before annealing? If there is any film/contamination on the brass it will come up with different colors.

This looks like heated too much.
In your "Brass Case" I think Yellow color is from Zinc. You may have Cooked your brass too hot and pulled the Zinc out of the brass.
Brass is made out of 67% Copper & 33% Zinc.
Cartridge Brass Cases have different % depending on the manufacture.
Yellow is the color of Zink heated.
Green is the color of Copper heated.
You also saw a "Green" color in the flame so you were cooking the Cooper out.
Thanks
Len & Jill

Do I need to toss the brass that's that color or can I tell if it still has enough integrity to be used?

For context it's twice fired Lapua brass fired from a 300 Norma Magnum

 

[eod.mickelson]

Did you clean the brass before annealing? If there is any film/contamination on the brass it will come up with different colors.

This looks like heated too much.
In your "Brass Case" I think Yellow color is from Zinc. You may have Cooked your brass too hot and pulled the Zinc out of the brass.
Brass is made out of 67% Copper & 33% Zinc.
Cartridge Brass Cases have different % depending on the manufacture.
Yellow is the color of Zink heated.
Green is the color of Copper heated.
You also saw a "Green" color in the flame so you were cooking the Cooper out.
Thanks
Len & Jill

I did clean it in walnut media for an hour.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

There are probably 1,000 different views on Annealing Brass on LRH alone. What system to use - Flame, Salt Bath or Induction. Anneal every time or, every other time.
What is the BEST System for ANNEALING?
Everyone has their own opinions.

I can't and don't want to Promote one system over the other for fear of reprisal.

Just my opinion if our Annealer produced annealed brass like in your picture:
First I would not use it to reload.
Second re-evaluate how the brass is being annealed to produce proper annealed brass.

 

[eod.mickelson]

There are probably 1,000 different views on Annealing Brass on LRH alone. What system to use - Flame, Salt Bath or Induction. Anneal every time or, every other time.
What is the BEST System for ANNEALING?
Everyone has their own opinions.

I can't and don't want to Promote one system over the other for fear of reprisal.

Just my opinion if our Annealer produced annealed brass like in your picture:
First I would not use it to reload.
Second re-evaluate how the brass is being annealed to produce proper annealed brass.

Thank you for the input, and I completely understand where you're coming from.
One question, are you saying for both pieces or just the crispy one as far as results?
I'm very new to reloading and this is my first venture into annealing.
Thank you!
Dan

 

[jasent]

You can't burn the zinc out of brass. It probably had some residual brass lube on it. The color change is from oxygen and heat. If something is on the brass less oxygen gets to the brass affecting color. That brass is not ruined.
Induction annealers heat the brass to over 1100f.
As long as you're not annealing the head or case walls you're fine. Torch annealing just barely gets the job done.
To anneal brass it takes 700f for an hour. 1000f gets it done in seconds

 

[Skeeter05]

I agree that the brass was contaminated before annealing. If you wanted to know for sure I would Scotch-Brite the suspected "over annealed" brass resize it and load a projectile the pull the projectile. I would do the same process for another piece of annealed brass that is not suspected to be over annealed. After both projectiles are pulled then measure the neck OD for each. If one has been "over annealed" then there will be less spring back.

I suspect you will end up with the same neck OD on each.

 

[eod.mickelson]

I agree that the brass was contaminated before annealing. If you wanted to know for sure I would Scotch-Brite the suspected "over annealed" brass resize it and load a projectile the pull the projectile. I would do the same process for another piece of annealed brass that is not suspected to be over annealed. After both projectiles are pulled then measure the neck OD for each. If one has been "over annealed" then there will be less spring back.

I suspect you will end up with the same neck OD on each.

I'll have to give this a shot, thank you!

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

This is why so many people will not answer Posts on annealing.
There are so many different views and opinions on the type of annealing and machines used. Brass is Annealed between 500 & 800 degrees F. Depending on the type of heat used will depend on the length of time to heat at a specific temperature-AND for a specific Purpose.
Brass is composed of 67% Copper & 33% Zinc. Brass Cartridge Manufactures may have their own Proprietary percentages of Copper, Zinc and possibly other metals.

Zinc Melts at 780 degrees F and Copper 1,985 F.
I am not a Meteorologist, but have worked for General Dynamics Electric Boat Division Nuclear and studied Metallurgy and the effects of heat on metals. There is the "Window" of "Heat Temperature" to Properly Anneal specific metals. If it is under the specific temperature for a specific time it is not Annealed. If it goes OVER the specific temperature the molecular structure of the metal can change - also will not be annealed properly. The metals (Copper/Zinc) changed past their original specifications.
Proper annealing will help your BRASS last for more cycles of reloading.
What I posted is just a fraction of information that you can get on "Cartridge Brass Annealing"
You should do your own research to make the determination on how YOU will PROPERLY Anneal Your Brass.
We have used and tested several Brass Annealing Systems and found one that works best for us.
I know that one of the reasons for LRH is to get information to help you reload and save you the time to determine what is best. Annealing is one that you need to research and pick the best for you and your budget. Most different types of Annealing Machines will give you the same results if properly used.

 

[Tac-O]

The most common method I've seen referenced that is nearly fool proof is having the room completely dark or nearly so. Set it so it heats until the neck and shoulder just barely start to glow. Then it's also common to put tempilaq on the case body to ensure you're not getting the case too hot too far down. When I used a single torch, I think it was about a 6 second heat time to get there for a 30-06 case. I abandoned that because I didn't have a good fixture to keep the distance from flame and rotation speed consistent.

I'd scotch brite a few "bad" ones and a few "good" ones, then turn the lights out and see if there is a difference in how long they glow or how bright they glow with the time setting you have.