What frequency of Annealing for best case life and consisitent accuracy?

[Deleted member 46119]

That firing itself does not harden brass or lead to a need for annealing

This is the part I disagree with.

Unless your brass comes out of the chamber ready for loading with no sizing, it stretched to yield during firing which works the brass. Physics is physics.

I do know that there are some black powder shooters and a few other types that have their set ups to soft seat and never resize. The brass was sized from the first firing and then never changes.

It is possible to setup a chamber so that no resizing is needed, I don't have any like that. It would take a sharp shoulder and a tight neck.

 

[Mikecr]

I would like people to understand that it's sizing (up/down), or grain breaking, that hardens brass, and the more sizing they cause/engage in, the more brass will harden.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I know for a fact I do not have the experience of a number of shooters on here and am perfectly happy to be incorrect as thats one way to learn.

With that said,

I am not sure I have experienced the need for more neck tension than a PROPERLY annealed neck can provide in terms of its effect on accuracy that sizing the neck down tighter could provide. Not saying it does not exist just that to me that seems to point to some other issue with the load development or case prep. I have never had to size a neck down so far under the bullet diameter I could not start the seating to get enough tension. Most all the time I am good somewhere between .002-.005 usually I like around .004

Just thinking out loud here but to me if a annealed neck can not provide enough tension it likely was over annealed. Otherwise if it was just annealed to the hardness as it came from the factory then even new it could not provide enough tension and likley even after one firing it would still be too soft as you can size a neck down a good deal before no longer fitting a bullet (not that this would be a good thing over all)

All in all this is likley just splitting hairs

Well maybe you will experience it and maybe you wont. If your not testing it both ways I guess youll never know.

 

[Full Curl]

I got my molten salt annealing setup but have not used it yet.

Have some stuff for an induction annealer, haven't built it yet.

I've never seen or tired the dipping/molten process. Is there more good information out there on it? How is it in cost compared to buying a fancy torch annealing machine? Trying to figure out which way to go for my own annealing needs which is more general precision shooting and hunting needs rather than competition needs. Thanks.

 

[Mikecr]

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=6019.0

 

[Full Curl]

Thanks Mikecr. Read that entire thread. Sure seems like a good method for the common guy who might only anneal a couple hundred cases a year. I'm somewhat concerned with how safe the method is and if the salt were to get too hot or something like that would happen, but I'm still going to consider it. I'm assuming the torch is the more common method overall?

 

[Mikecr]

Best to be skeptical of collective intelligence, as it always diminishes with numbers.

 

[tim_w]

Well maybe you will experience it and maybe you wont. If your not testing it both ways I guess youll never know.

very true. btw you being willing to post up your k owledge and experince is very much appreciated. I do not want to give a different impression as txt has a habit of doing.

 

[Triple BB]

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[RD57]

For me I have found annealing is required before forming some manufacturers brass from 220 Swift to 220 Wilson Arrow e.g., and then after every 5 firings because the chamber allows about .005" neck expansion. For my .223 Remington Sako 75 whose case neck only expands .003" I anneal after 10 firings. My thoughts are if you observe inconsistent bullet seating force then there are inconsistencies with your case necks that need to be addressed, annealing being one of them. In my experience I've found no standard answer as to when to anneal, just too many variables among chambers, dies, manufacturers brass, neck thickness, etc.

 

[Flintcreek6412]

I have periodically annealed brass for a tactical competition rifle every 3-4 firings. Now I am starting to delve into LR/ELR shooting with a 7mm Remington Magnum, and soon a 300 Winchester Magnum. Based on your experience, what would your recommendation be for intervals between annealing brass for these cartridges. Thanks.

Ok, let's get back to the original question which asks about LR/ELR so I will take that to mean 1000yrds plus.

I have dabbled with the homemade annealing torches etc all to variable results. Not until I spent the money($1000) on an AMP machine did I actually see a huge gain in annealing. The AMP is 100% consistent every time. No RPM variables, no torch temperature variable which do happen with change in gas volume and temperature.

I anneal after every firing and my ES/ED have dropped significantly. I have noticed that my bump sizing is dead on every time instead of a variable of .001-.002 as in the past. I notice my neck sizing is also dead on the same every single time. Now I did have to make slight adjustments to my dies to account for less springback than I used to have. I also had to adjust my neck bushing by 1 size since again I didn't get the springback as before.

Everyone has their tricks and processes for reloading and I am no different. I anneal after tumbling but I tumble with stainless and I've heard the tumbling can harden to some degree so I anneal after that. I then size after annealing. Some is voodoo and some works. The key is doing it absolutely the same every time.

Again, we are talking LR shooting where every little bit matters.

I also considered $1000 for a gadget too much money. But when I add up cost of brass(I only use Lapua), cost of other components, travel to shoot and cost of entries not to mention barrels, optics etc I find $1000 to actually be an investment and is pretty small averaged out for several years. Other than custom actions and barrels the AMP is the single best piece of equipment I own.

 

[Okanogan]

I do not claim to be an annealing expert. I currently own a Annie induction machine and use it only after 5+ firings to try and maintain brass life.
I had planned on using it more often until reading Bryan Litz's Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II, Chapter on Neck Tension. Bryan ran some tests on .223 using an AMP annealer and measured effect on muzzle velocity consistency. His interim summary findings, pending more in depth study, was that their .223 data showed annealing didn't make any difference in muzzle velocity testing results. He points out there are good reasons other than SD/ES to anneal though.
The published findings from the book tend to run contrary to internet wisdom so I look forward to more in depth reloading research in a future Litz publication. For those who have not had a chance to read it though, the Vol II publication has 5 chapters in an advance handloading section that I found well worth reading through.

 

[Chuck32571]

I've purchased the Annealing Made Perfect machine and anneal every time before resizing. By softening the shoulder and neck area prior to resizing it allows the resizer ball to expand the neck area much easier and without the force required for cases that have not been annealed. Splitting of the neck is no longer a concern either.

 

[RD57]

Okanogan - Brian's writing on annealing was interesting & informative. It pretty much mirrors what I've seen in a few of my rifles but not in a few others. Sounds like a great topic for him to do more research into using different rifles, calibers and brass to expand our knowledge.