Case annealing

[Old Rooster]

My seating force was light but the shoulder was so soft I could dent it with a screw driver.I did it to show unbelievers that salt bath annealing can be done but I went farther by heating salt bath at 850-900 for 10 seconds.That is what ruined the brass that would not hold a primer anymore so I merely used it as a test for 5 cases and all collapsed at the shoulder.
Just wanted to clarify my original post sir as it may have caused more questions than answers.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

I mean no offense but there is no trying, he built a nice machine

Absolutely I did say "Really nice try to make your own annealer. Very inventive like so many other"
The point I was getting at that I have made a lot of equipment to save money only to go and get some piece of equipment that was made and worked much better. I think that his idea and they way he made the annealer would be most likely better than the Propane torch annealers out there on the market today. I have had several torch annealers and was very happy to have something to anneal with. However they do have their draw backs. Once I got the AMP there is no comparison to torch annealers-JUST MY OPINION.
To get a pie pan, a ammo box and some controllers takes a wizard to think of that. My hat off to WM51. Fantastic way to make an annealer!!!! there will probably other members going to be asking WM51 for his plans so that they can make their own annealers.

 

[Mikecr]

I went farther by heating salt bath at 850-900 for 10 seconds.

You describe the result of FULL annealing (ruined brass).
Even AMP's chief complaint about salt bath was that you could not full anneal with it (I see it as as a benefit).
But I've never run the temps quite that high. My ceiling is 850.
So maybe I'm wrong, and it is possible to screw up -even with dip annealing. Did you get a lot of color change?

 

[ButterBean]

From the fine folks at AMP

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[Old Rooster]

Mike I did get color change but not as much as I thought it would.
The brass at the case mouth was dark but the shoulder was not as dark but when I took a screw driver and turned it sideways and pushed into the case mouth it was moved easily and then I tried to load all 5 with a 180 gr bullet and before the bullet was all the way down the shoulders colasped

 

[Old Rooster]

AMP said there was no way to get the medium hot enough to anneal and I was just trying to find out if that was true or not.
I am happy for my friends that can drop that much money on an AMP annealing machine but I can't so I try to get as close to annealing as I can and my use of a drill and torch and watching for slight red color worked 50% of the time for me after ruining many many Lapua and ADG brass in 308 win I quit and got the salt bath system and so far it works well for me.Again it may not be perfect but it works well and I haven't gotten split necks since I started using it.

 

[QuietTexan]

Mike I did get color change but not as much as I thought it would.
The brass at the case mouth was dark but the shoulder was not as dark but when I took a screw driver and turned it sideways and pushed into the case mouth it was moved easily and then I tried to load all 5 with a 180 gr bullet and before the bullet was all the way down the shoulders colasped

I'm reading what you're saying to track with what AMP's testing showed - you dipped a case for a very long time at a very high temperature, after that the neck is harder than the shoulder, so the seating die is collapsing the shoulder instead of seating the bullet into the neck. Look at the yellow trace on the AMP chart - the softest point is at the top of the shoulder, and the hardest point is the middle of the shoulder, hence shoulder collapse.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

From the fine folks at AMP

Salt Bath Annealing - Does It Work? | Learn More | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

Bean
Excellent information. Thanks for posting!!!
I know one thing that I hear often when brass is annealed. People tend to go by the color change on the case. It is not correct. Color change is effected by any contamination/oxidization on the brass itself. I can take brass that was cleaned well over a year or two and the color when annealed is very distinctive (oxidization has taken place over time). Then I can take brass that I just got done running through my wet SS media tumbler , dry them and anneal. There is little color change compared to brass that has oxidized.
I was always skeptical of Salt annealing. Having a Safety/Environmental Health degree and knowing the Periodic chart 11/NA "SALT" can be very dangerous when heated and can burn & could cause an explosion.

 

[ButterBean]

Bean
Excellent information. Thanks for posting!!!
I know one thing that I hear often when brass is annealed. People tend to go by the color change on the case. It is not correct. Color change is effected by any contamination/oxidization on the brass itself. I can take brass that was cleaned well over a year or two and the color when annealed is very distinctive (oxidization has taken place ore time). Then I can take brass that I just got done running through my wet SS media tumbler , dry them and anneal. There is little color change compared to brass that has oxidized.
I was always skeptical of Salt annealing. Having a Safety/Environmental Health degree and knowing the Periodic chart 11/NA "SALT" can be very dangerous when heated and can burn & could cause an explosion.

Yes Sir, I don't pay attention to color change as brass brands and lots are all different

 

[Old Rooster]

Thanks for the graph Quiet Texan.I had a motor built by High Horsepower professionals and they showed me a graph to show my Horse Power would be at certain RPM's and it was not at all close on a Dyno so I am suspect of a graph since then.I was supposed to get 400 HP and the dyno showed 355 HP.
When a competing company says something that would help their business and show a graph I worry.
That's why I did the test I did.
I may be wrong but I never had a split neck with salt bath annealing.
Machines that use a torch with a timer may work great as that would stop too much heat for too long but so far I have annealed about 900 cases with the salt bath annealing system and zero split necks.
It's possible the AMP is a better machine but since I cannot afford one I'll never know personally.

 

[ButterBean]

Thanks for the graph Quiet Texan.I had a motor built by High Horsepower professionals and they showed me a graph to show my Horse Power would be at certain RPM's and it was not at all close on a Dyno so I am suspect of a graph since then.I was supposed to get 400 HP and the dyno showed 355 HP.
When a competing company says something that would help their business and show a graph I worry.
That's why I did the test I did.
I may be wrong but I never had a split neck with salt bath annealing.
Machines that use a torch with a timer may work great as that would stop too much heat for too long but so far I have annealed about 900 cases with the salt bath annealing system and zero split necks.
It's possible the AMP is a better machine but since I cannot afford one I'll never know personally.

ShoNuff

 

[QuietTexan]

Thanks for the graph Quiet Texan.I had a motor built by High Horsepower professionals and they showed me a graph to show my Horse Power would be at certain RPM's and it was not at all close on a Dyno so I am suspect of a graph since then.I was supposed to get 400 HP and the dyno showed 355 HP.

Your car example is a projection vs actual results, the Amp data is actual results vs actual results, there's no guessing as part of it. It shows the hardness of actual pieces of brass after being tested, and has literally nothing to do with induction annealing so it's not really helping them out at all. Your test even confirmed exactly what they were saying.

As for the engine, did they spec you crank or wheel HP? Because if they spec'd you 400BHP then you got less than 15% driveline losses, that's actually not too bad a drop to 355 at the wheels. They might have come in over target there and deserve some credit

 

[Old Rooster]

Quiet Texan you know a bit about high performance motors.
I was promised 477 hp at the crank and that would give me around 400 hp ARW(at rear wheels).I used to run a dyno that is made by the company that bought Clayton dyno's but since I retired I sold all my precision mic's to measure crankshaft clearances so I had it hired out to a company that promised at least 400 hp ARW(At Rear Wheels).
Brake Horse Power is on a stand and an electric water pump with nothing to "Break" the horsepower.
This information is from a worn out older person that built 400 to 550 horse power motors in the 60's and 70's.

 

[QuietTexan]

Man, good numbers back when HP was hard to get. My FIL was a plate printer and worked on the engine rebuild in his GTO himself, lots of fun to work on old iron. I did diesel engine work, seems like now days it's just "put a tuner on it" and hope the heads stay on and you don't slag the turbo. Not as much fun in the computer doing all the work for you.