Have been reloading for a long time, have never polished any cases in a tumbler just polished a few cases with steel wool if they needed it, why would you tumble polish them and is it better? Have never annealed any cases either, how does annealing improve the load?
Case polishing and annealing?
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DRY Tumble media polishing is IMO for the uniformed. I use a thumbler tumbler wet steel rod media. I resize and decap first. Check length and inside neck champher. Then the wet tumbler for remove all the case lube. The small steel media scrubs out the interior of the cases to help maintain equal volume size and no carbon in the throat. Dry media which I did for 20 + years just sucks. I'd be fighting stuck inside red walnut shells and the cases always had that media dust inside and out.
Some calibers have the ability to last 10 reloades if anealled properly to help from getting work hardened and cracking the necks. I don't aneal until I get about on the third reload of say my 243 or 270 ai.
These are a drying load of 223 and they look brand new after wet tumbling for 3 hours. Another load from a shooting day.
Some calibers have the ability to last 10 reloades if anealled properly to help from getting work hardened and cracking the necks. I don't aneal until I get about on the third reload of say my 243 or 270 ai.
These are a drying load of 223 and they look brand new after wet tumbling for 3 hours. Another load from a shooting day.
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I dry tumble maybe twice/year. After all my sizing ops I clean the case with acetone, brass doesn't have the slight tarnish after firing that I used to get. I anneal after every firing, it keeps the necks the same hardness, load to load.
M1A1ABRAMS
Well-Known Member
Do you clean your brass?
I was just watching an interview with a long range shooter and he claimed that he doesn't clean his brass. Most of the time I clean mine because I was told I had to. Do all of you clean your brass before you reload it?
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
It isn't better, just a part of basic cleaning.
This, along with primer pocket cleaning, running a nylon brush through necks, and outside wipe off of carbon/case lube.
Whether annealing improves load consistency or not, and whether it improves case life, depends on your sizing plan.
I deep body dip anneal before 1st firing so that my cases fully form quickly. Then I may re-anneal a batch years down the road.
I can get by with this because I keep all sizing to a minimum.
Dip annealing is not full annealing. It's a rational stress relieving.
I dip to mid case bodies when I do it, which is not very often.
As far as what improves a load, I can think of no reason that annealing, in itself, would.
Annealing makes brass softer, which may or may not be good for a load. This could also lead to more sizing need, which brings a real question of consistency. If your brass is not consistent in thickness (full length) and your sizing of it is any more than needed with harder brass, then annealed or not, that brass thickness accepts/stores energy differently. And of course, if relying on annealing, it better be perfect annealing to help you.
I reproduce exactly what I load develop with, which does not include constant annealing.
Now & then I'll see some departure in case character. A battle with shoulder bump, or matching of pre-seating forces for example. I might even have a case throwing shots. This is stuff I catch and separate pretty early on. For what I think annealing might save, I'll toss em in a box, and when I get enough of that, I'll reset the whole batch (not just that box) with another dip anneal.
I'm getting ready to reset a batch of Lapua 223 cases that shoot really well. I have around 35 reload cycles on them, with no FL sizing.
On resetting, I expect the 1st firing after to be 'off'. But they'll be right again with the 2nd firing onward.
Works for me
Clean cases are better on the sizing die.
Annealing improves case life removing work hardening, sizing becomes more accurate, improves consistent neck tension which improves the loads accuracy.
RegionRat
Well-Known Member
TLDR: Beginners should consider manual hand cleaning of cases, as well as dry tumble. Not all types of shooting are the same, but most are not Bench Rest and the methods should consider the volume and type of shooting context.
Some types of shooting are going to mean the brass goes into the dirt, mud, or snow. This doesn't apply to BR shooting, but in some types of matches or hunting practice, the brass hits the dirt.
Depending on how many rounds we are talking about, a dry tumbler is a fair method to help clean off all the mess before the dies get dirty.
Not every aspect of shooting will be able to take advantage or need bulk processes. The number of rounds you are processing will have an affect on the balance in trade off study between manual methods and automation or bulk methods.
When traditional practice was taught a generation ago, you were taught to clean your brass before lubing to size in order to prevent a mess in your dies. The default was dry tumble or hand wiping at the minimum if there was a small number being used. That was general advice and in my opinion was good to start folks out. There are other methods and pros and cons to all of them, including ones that skip cleaning all together.
Fast forward to folks jumping into F-Class and PRS with the influence of the internet, and we can't blame folks for challenging the old generic advice or experimenting with efficiency. Keep in mind, many of the folks who are accomplished competitive shooters, didn't start out skipping steps or jumping forward in the movie and cutting to the chase so to speak.
With the exception of a few very young shooters who have parents and coaches to guide them, the majority of shooters should take the time to learn things right in the first place, and when they shoot well enough to detect critical differences they can experiment when their capability has a chance of "shooting the differences".
If you are just starting to reload and reading here, keep in mind there are many types of shooting and not every kind can take advantage of Bench Rest or F-Class advanced loading practices.
Later on, you may find yourself bulk loading. Removing the sizing lube can also be done with corn cob media where it will get the inside and outside of the cases for the price of dumping them in the tumbler and then rolling them in a media separator afterward.
When you have some skill and can take the time to test, there is nothing wrong with experimenting with ultrasonic or wet tumbling. In my opinion they both have things to offer, but they also should come with some warnings and caveats. Neck prep details include what happens in the difference between a hand wiped case, a dry tumbled case, a ultrasonic case, or a wet tumbled case.
Each different method has interaction effects with respect to seating forces and target performance. My advice is to put those tests off till after you have mastered the basics.
With pistol brass, dry tumble is also an easy and less tedious way to keep the soot and dirt out of your dies and press.
The devil is in the details, but dry tumblers can also be used to apply a wax for tarnish and oxidation controls. Folks debate bullet weld and such all the time, but a dry tumbler can be part of that solution as well.
Just like your choice of tumbling methods, annealing can bring benefits as well as burdens. When you are ready to say you have the basics under control and want to see what happens with annealing, it should be easy to find a friend to let you test a batch. I would say test more than one method and see which one adapts to your situation before you pull out your credit card.
Not going to try and persuade anyone one way or the other, but not all types of shooting lend themselves to the same methods. A rookie should visit with a mentor and take the time early in their learning curve to explore many alternative methods so they understand them all regardless of which ones they apply to themselves later. YMMV
Some types of shooting are going to mean the brass goes into the dirt, mud, or snow. This doesn't apply to BR shooting, but in some types of matches or hunting practice, the brass hits the dirt.
Depending on how many rounds we are talking about, a dry tumbler is a fair method to help clean off all the mess before the dies get dirty.
Not every aspect of shooting will be able to take advantage or need bulk processes. The number of rounds you are processing will have an affect on the balance in trade off study between manual methods and automation or bulk methods.
When traditional practice was taught a generation ago, you were taught to clean your brass before lubing to size in order to prevent a mess in your dies. The default was dry tumble or hand wiping at the minimum if there was a small number being used. That was general advice and in my opinion was good to start folks out. There are other methods and pros and cons to all of them, including ones that skip cleaning all together.
Fast forward to folks jumping into F-Class and PRS with the influence of the internet, and we can't blame folks for challenging the old generic advice or experimenting with efficiency. Keep in mind, many of the folks who are accomplished competitive shooters, didn't start out skipping steps or jumping forward in the movie and cutting to the chase so to speak.
With the exception of a few very young shooters who have parents and coaches to guide them, the majority of shooters should take the time to learn things right in the first place, and when they shoot well enough to detect critical differences they can experiment when their capability has a chance of "shooting the differences".
If you are just starting to reload and reading here, keep in mind there are many types of shooting and not every kind can take advantage of Bench Rest or F-Class advanced loading practices.
Later on, you may find yourself bulk loading. Removing the sizing lube can also be done with corn cob media where it will get the inside and outside of the cases for the price of dumping them in the tumbler and then rolling them in a media separator afterward.
When you have some skill and can take the time to test, there is nothing wrong with experimenting with ultrasonic or wet tumbling. In my opinion they both have things to offer, but they also should come with some warnings and caveats. Neck prep details include what happens in the difference between a hand wiped case, a dry tumbled case, a ultrasonic case, or a wet tumbled case.
Each different method has interaction effects with respect to seating forces and target performance. My advice is to put those tests off till after you have mastered the basics.
With pistol brass, dry tumble is also an easy and less tedious way to keep the soot and dirt out of your dies and press.
The devil is in the details, but dry tumblers can also be used to apply a wax for tarnish and oxidation controls. Folks debate bullet weld and such all the time, but a dry tumbler can be part of that solution as well.
Just like your choice of tumbling methods, annealing can bring benefits as well as burdens. When you are ready to say you have the basics under control and want to see what happens with annealing, it should be easy to find a friend to let you test a batch. I would say test more than one method and see which one adapts to your situation before you pull out your credit card.
Not going to try and persuade anyone one way or the other, but not all types of shooting lend themselves to the same methods. A rookie should visit with a mentor and take the time early in their learning curve to explore many alternative methods so they understand them all regardless of which ones they apply to themselves later. YMMV
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
So if your results are good, then you want to repeat that of course.
Still doesn't mean that annealing causes or gets you to good results.
It can be detrimental to results.
Don't forget that annealing causes softer brass, and that ain't free.
Softer necks means lower tension. Changing neck friction affects seating forces. Softer upper case bodies raises pressure.
Not all cartridges and loads like this.
Wouldn't surprise me if you could do as well, or better, without excessive annealing.
@Mikecr Can you "expand" on this a bit. I'm not understanding why this is. All the other stuff makes sense.
muledeer01
Well-Known Member
I wet tumble my brass every time after depr and anneling. Yes it comes out sparkling, but it makes it much easier to see flaws and defects in the brass. I feel the more I handle it and inspect it the better chance I'll nip a problem in the bud before it happens.
annealed brass is original tension.
Im also curious how annealed brass raises pressure?
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2008
- Messages
- 5,577
Original tension varies by manufacturer due to alloy content, HOW and WHEN it is annealed by them…not all manufacturers anneal as a last step. Some anneal prior to every forming, but do not anneal again after final neck forming is done prior to tumbling. A few manufacturers anneal less during forming, then anneal as a last step.
This changes final hardness, and annealing yourself is most likely going to be different than the hardness the manufacturer adheres to.
I ran several brands of cases through a Rockwell hardness tester, not one of my annealed cases matched their hardness, all of them were less…
Cheers.
Thats good info. I'm not surprised manufacturers vary in their annealing process but my only point was new (unfired) ammo or brass isn't work hardended from fireforming.
I was actually more curious how softer upper case bodies raises pressure?
