The Future of Long Range Hunting

[MMERSS]

It's been fairly quiet lately with discussion surrounding long range hunting portrayed by position statements and prominent hunting magazines. I was quite surprised and refreshed a couple weeks ago upon receiving a phone call from one such organization inquiring about covering a story on long range marksmanship. My first thought, "Why is an organization specifically involved with hunting wanting to cover a story inside the schoolhouse of Montana's next generation of long range marksmen?" I soon rationalized the answer to this question was really not important. After all, long range marksmanship skill is additionally a prerequisite with maximum effective range hunting. Is the tide of opposition surrounding long range hunting starting to swing?

Two reoccurring themes surface when addressing opposing arguments to long range shooting; freedom of choice and skills necessary to ensure a quick and clean harvest. I have adamantly supported these two positions throughout discussion with those in opposition. Additionally, the long range schoolhouse and media were commonly discussed as means to project the positive image of responsible hunting under any form. Furthermore, discussion surfaced that "if the long range schoolhouse and media outlets, such as this forum, were unwilling to address the responsible aspects of long range hunting others will do this for them." This is a pretty clear message, if a household is unwilling to police their own, how can the household gain and maintain respect from others?

Recently, I reviewed a hunting video from a prominent business and TV show host with well-known sponsors. Skills to ensure quick and clean kills at range require practice. Harvesting stationary animals long range is acquired through such practice. This video portrays a new form of long range hunting, that of harvesting a long range animal while on the move. The video predicts 0 MOA of windage documented during this shot. This form of practice is not realistic or available to the vast majority of long range hunters. Therefore, why would a long range community accept this method of long range hunting without concern? I do not support this method of hunting as I cannot effectively train to ensure success with such a shot nor can I convince those in opposition that a quick and clean kill is assured by such practice.

After what I believe were efforts with gaining ground, videos like this take that effort and desire to continue support many steps back. The future of long range hunting will be won or lost inside the house. Sound hunting practice, especially from those with significant influence, is a necessity for survival.

 

[bogger01]

i'm with you on this.i hope this form of hunting doesn't take hold in the long range hunting community.variables like wind,distance,angle etc. can be taken into account and mastered by most hunters who are serious about it but a moving animal adds a variable that is extremely difficult to calculate by even some of the most experienced shooters.i've often said that long range hunting isn't for everyone,especially those who are lax in their training.i'm surprised that the sponsor you mentioned is on board with this.this could be shed a negative light on our community...marty

 

[Len Backus]

There have been countless mentions on the LRH website since its inception in 2001 that shots at moving animals at long range are not a good idea. Here it is a well known principle, as fundamental as is proper trigger technique. So fundamental that there has almost never even been a discussion of how much to lead a walking animal at any significant distance...because you simply shouldn't do it.

 

[ATH]

+1 Len, well said. I've not really had problems with moving deer in bow range with a gun but even at 100 yards I pass.

I can't imagine even thinking of shooting a moving target at anything anyone would consider long range with a rifle.

 

[MOA Chaser]

The foundation of hunting has always been rooted in ethics. Once a hunter loses respect for the game and considers an animal nothing more than a target then he is no longer a hunter, but a pervert. I am a novice at long range hunting and have literally let dozens of animals walk before taking that shot. In my opinion, LRH, respect for wildlife, and ethics are one and the same.

 

[7magcreedmoor]

Recently had an exchange with a friend on how to calculate the lead for a moving target. This came during a conversation on antelope hunting, and what to do IF the first shot goes astray. We stipulated from the outset that we would never choose to shoot a mover EXCEPT to try to "clean up the mess" from a blown shot. When we got into the nuts and bolts of target velocity, angle and range change from target movement, sustained lead vs. intercept shot and so on it became obvious pretty quick that you better not screw up the first shot....

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I have to digress a bit on never shooting a moving target at range. While I would never go anywhere near ELR (1,000 yards or better) on a moving target, I have made 1 shot kills on trotting deer to 600 yards give or take a bit.

Most of the gents here are using very heavy for caliber bullets with a rather long time of flight, which doesn't bode well for shooting a moving animal. I won't shoot at an animal when my time of flight exceeds 1/2 second by much at all. You simply have too much lag time for things to change and possibly go wrong when you go there.
If there is a question as to whether you will make the shot, don't do it. Most times moving game is also going over uneven ground, so I'll hold off until the game stops to avoid a bad hit from an elevation or direction change from the animal.

 

[HARPERC]

Furthermore, discussion surfaced that "if the long range schoolhouse and media outlets, such as this forum, were unwilling to address the responsible aspects of long range hunting others will do this for them." This is a pretty clear message, if a household is unwilling to police their own, how can the household gain and maintain respect from others?

I do not support this method of hunting as I cannot effectively train to ensure success with such a shot nor can I convince those in opposition that a quick and clean kill is assured by such practice.

After what I believe were efforts with gaining ground, videos like this take that effort and desire to continue support many steps back. The future of long range hunting will be won or lost inside the house. Sound hunting practice, especially from those with significant influence, is a necessity for survival.[/FONT]

I'm uncertain if the "long range schoolhouse" is an actual entity, or an abstract for discussion, I'll proceed as if it's an abstract.

My preference in schoolhouse policing is a system that is universally applied, proportionate, and generally a woodshed system where problems are worked out as privately as possible preserving dignity of all involved, and minimizing the political aspect of human interactions.

I haven't seen the video to which you refer so I won't say it's a good or bad thing without more info. I will say moving coyotes at close to moderate range, are more than enough challenge to me, and while my maximum big game range won't trip any thresholds here (LRH), it's likely to offend the collective culture, and self appointed keepers of the "ethics cups". Our particular local game department rolls its eyes at minor improprieties, so it doesn't have to look at it's own failings. It had to finally fire 2 officers for game crimes because it was another state, and could not be covered up. Those that attempted to defraud the people (Washington Lynx), were never punished, and if there has been any attempt to educate, or influence the agency by "sportsman's" groups" I missed it. So much for universal, proportional, and non political.

There are many things I can't do that others can. While I'm skeptical that an individual can consistently make the shots described, I would listen if they wished to defend themselves.

Web MD, and watching House reruns all night won't make you a Dr., surfing the net, and watching American Sniper won't make you a rifleman at any range. Unfortunately these are the times we live in.

As far as "gaining ground" in the long range debate I'm skeptical. There are as many anti's in our sportsmen groups, and agencies, as there are at a PETA conference, and until that core issue is resolved the rest posturing and politics.

There is no method of hunting that produces zero losses, and in spite of the rhetoric about going back to spears, the hog hunters using knives fail to gain approval from those that oppose hunting. If you're looking for validation it's not out there.

 

[Greyfox]

While I'm in no way an advocate of shooting moving game at long range, as with just about everything in this sport, a definition is needed. I have shot moving game under certain conditions. The few times I have done this the shot was under 500 yards, walking, and I was using a rifle that I have shot numerous coyotes under similar conditions and had a good understanding of where the bullet was going to go. Like all of the long range shooting we do, experience and judgement is critical. I have passed on 500 yards shots on a standing animal in a variable strong wind because of the possibility of a bad hit. I wouldn't shoot moving game too much past 500 or 600 yards, and then, only under very definable conditions. The problem with promoting the shooting of moving game is the same issue(or worse) that seems to be evolving with LR hunting in general. Someone buys a turnkey rifle believing they can go out and simply kill game at 1000 yards. I think there has to be much more emphasis on practice and skill development, as well as the difference between shooting steel gongs in static conditions at 1000 yards, and actually hunting game.

As to the future, I think it's very possible that just as many of us never dreamed of making a 1000 yard shot on game 20 years ago, it's very possible that technology and knowledge will evolve to further extend range and hit moving targets. IMO

 

[MMERSS]

I'm uncertain if the "long range schoolhouse" is an actual entity, or an abstract for discussion, I'll proceed as if it's an abstract.

Good comments,
The term schoolhouse can be viewed as abstract. I will expand with this. The "schoolhouse" is a means of available information for a person to use material or instruction to make informed decisions. Is this information readily available and is a person appropriately applying this information? Education informs, how an individual uses this information forming their decisions ultimately reflects back on the person. Is a person or team deciding to make a shot on an animal at extended range well informed to estimate a degree of success? If not why not?

BTW, this forum could be considered a "schoolhouse." It informs decisions. What would the long range community look like, and how informed would it be, without available "schoolhouses" such as this? Is information available in this forum for a person to gain knowledge informing good decisions, in other words "police" their behavior? I would hope so!!!!

 

[Korhil78]

I have had to train myself and shoot tons just to be able to shoot game at longrange (1000 yards and below). My longest shot to date is 720 yards on an elk. If it had been at 1000 yards, I would have taken the shot because I had shot a lot in the conditions that I was under during the hunt and knew that I could make the shot. Had the bull been moving, I would never have taken the shot. If it had continued moving until it was out of my range, I would have either moved to try to keep it in my range until it stopped or let it walk. I think a lot of practicing is necessary to be able to make longrange shots but a lot of self control is needed as well. Its a simple thing to talk about but hard for some people to master. When your heart is beating hard with the adrenaline rush and you want to shoot so bad, it makes it hard but you have to have complete control over yourself and realize when it is just unrealistic for you to take the shot.

You can take any person out and train them over time to make 1000 yard shots in different conditions. The hardest part is taking a person out and not only teaching them to make those shots but to teach them to have total control over their emotions so that they will not fool themselves into taking a shot that they have no business taking.

Moving shots are a no go for me at long range.

 

[MMERSS]

As to the future, I think it's very possible that just as many of us never dreamed of making a 1000 yard shot on game 20 years ago, it's very possible that technology and knowledge will evolve to further extend range and hit moving targets. IMO

This is a possibility for the future, even possible today. Ten years ago several would argue a reliable and repeatable shot much past 800 yards was not realistic. Today, all sorts of different types of targets are hung at various range with repetitive practice simulating hunting conditions. Discussion in this forum is consistent; practice, practice, practice and practice as if you're hunting.

For those taking shots on moving animals at extended range and promoting such shots for TV, would you care to share how many rounds of practice with simulated moving targets are conducted each year and would you care to show or discuss any of these targets with results?

 

[406precision]

For those taking shots on moving animals at extended range and promoting such shots on TV, would you care to share how many rounds of practice with simulated moving targets are conducted each year and would you care to show or discuss any of these targets with results? [/QUOTE]

This^^^^
I'll take a moving coyote any day however I'm sure the ones still laughing at me would prefer it!

 

[MMERSS]

This^^^^
I'll take a moving coyote any day however I'm sure the ones still laughing at me would prefer it!

Just curious, what's your success rate on a moving coyote at 600+ yards?