Stock action vs blueprinted vs custom ?
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This is an interesting thread. I have often pondered how much better a blue printed action would be compared to today's CNC machined recievers.
At one point I was making custom handloads for a custom rifle maker, who's name will not be divulged. I personally saw several blueprinted actions have accuracy issues because he made mistakes in the work.
In the last 30 years I have had over 25 barrels installed without any action work. I had Remington takeoffs, Douglas, Lilja and bartlein barrels installed on Rugers, Mark Xs, Winchesters and Remingtons. All were intended as hunting rifles. I never had any that didn't shoot well with some shooting exceptionally well. All would shoot under 3/4" at 100 yds with some shooting 1/2" at 200 yds. As to some rifles shooting better, I think it is because my handloading and barrel cleaning techniques got better.
Around 5 years ago I began doing my own barrel installations. Excluding the first barrel which had some learning involved, accuracy improved! The weird part is that my setup is not state of the art, in fact I HAVE to use a floating reamer holder as the 50s lathe is not perfect. All rifles were already setup with laminate or McMillan stocks with action bedded and barrels totally floated.
My experiences with my installation of 17 barrels plus the 25, or so, I had done professionally, my opinion is that a blueprinted action isn't necessary to get great accuracy.
Getting into the bench rest game is different. In this case I would suggest buying one of the best aftermarket actions like a Bat. That arena is very different and requires perfection in every aspect of the build to compete.
I agree with engineer40 on bedding, floating barrel and reloading. I want to add that my experiences show me a sharp reamer cutting at the proper speed along with a good crown is also very important part of the accuracy.
At one point I was making custom handloads for a custom rifle maker, who's name will not be divulged. I personally saw several blueprinted actions have accuracy issues because he made mistakes in the work.
In the last 30 years I have had over 25 barrels installed without any action work. I had Remington takeoffs, Douglas, Lilja and bartlein barrels installed on Rugers, Mark Xs, Winchesters and Remingtons. All were intended as hunting rifles. I never had any that didn't shoot well with some shooting exceptionally well. All would shoot under 3/4" at 100 yds with some shooting 1/2" at 200 yds. As to some rifles shooting better, I think it is because my handloading and barrel cleaning techniques got better.
Around 5 years ago I began doing my own barrel installations. Excluding the first barrel which had some learning involved, accuracy improved! The weird part is that my setup is not state of the art, in fact I HAVE to use a floating reamer holder as the 50s lathe is not perfect. All rifles were already setup with laminate or McMillan stocks with action bedded and barrels totally floated.
My experiences with my installation of 17 barrels plus the 25, or so, I had done professionally, my opinion is that a blueprinted action isn't necessary to get great accuracy.
Getting into the bench rest game is different. In this case I would suggest buying one of the best aftermarket actions like a Bat. That arena is very different and requires perfection in every aspect of the build to compete.
I agree with engineer40 on bedding, floating barrel and reloading. I want to add that my experiences show me a sharp reamer cutting at the proper speed along with a good crown is also very important part of the accuracy.
Wachsmann
Well-Known Member
So I have asked also in the past about custom actions and just how well they are machined...I was told by several that reguardless of the "custom action" it still has to be checked out for complete trueness because they have found that they still need work. I think with custom you get better options, finish, fit (hopefiully)...Also there is value added above the blueprinted factory action...But a good blueprinted action with a quality barrel wont hurt. I think really it just one more added point of consistency in your shooting setup...It just so happen to be one of the more expensive items in the setup.
Very interesting thread! I own LRH rifles in all three action forms that produce accuracy of .25MOA or better. Given a properly tried/squared action, the bulk of the performance is produced by the barrel/load. Accuracy takes on a different meaning when you begin to evaluate the rifle for holding zero, and precision shooting clean, dirty, hot, or cold, for many successive shots on different days or even months or years later. With this accuracy criteria, I think the dimensions and fitting of the action, barrel, and chamber work becomes more important. While there.may be some exceptions, to have a factory rifle do this is a crap shoot. All other aspects(load, bedding, scope, skill, etc.) being equal, my experience has been that if a good gunsmith trues/squares and correctly chambers the barreled action with a quality barrel fitted to a custom action OR one of the usual factory actions in good condition, you will have an excellent chance of meeting the above criteria. While the custom/Benchrest actions will certainly hold their value and make for a more impressive build, I think that unlike the Benchrest game, the subtle performance differences are lost in LRH. IMO.
yobuck
Well-Known Member
Anyway, real friends wont ask how much lead you mailed. lol
I pick up Remington 700's when they go on sale someplace (309.00 at Cabelas now for 700 adl) as, over the years I have purchased all the tools/equipment needed to true the action. After 2 rifles, the tools are "free" and I save a lot over "custom" actions that need a little tweaking anyway. What I have found is that ANY rifle/bbl/action can be made to shoot well if you take your time and make everything as "true" as possible when building the rifle. and I enjoy building them.
Great thread! I just had this conversation with a gunsmith who was by trade a very accomplished tool maker. I got to shoot a prototype of one of his latest projects last night a smokeless muzzle loader that was built completely in house aside from a timney trigger in it. 4 inch group at 500, I think could have been better but I wasnt a fan of the recoil, anyway. It came up when I was talking about putting a barrel on a factory gun. It was a factory gun, and I was looking to change the barrel to change caliber. So I asked about about blue printing etc thinking about what my bill would be. He asked how it shoots now, and I said great. His belief is that unless your logging huge numbers of shots for bench rest competitions you'd probably be wasting your money having me true it gain if any would be seriously minimal. He said the factories generally turn out true rifles. Of course there is the exception when one is bad for whatever reason. If they did it correctly it should be true it just wont appear all fancy and shiny. That being said, he further went on, I can do it and make it all nice and shiny looking, but if it shoots well now the most important thing is a high quality barrel that was properly chambered as concentric as possible, properly bedded, and high quality hand loads, and you will see a significant improvement. Most importantly the rifle will shoot well within the high standards your seeking. He closed the conversation with blue printing seems to have more of a positive psychological effect than a real life increase in performance, and there is always that slight chance it wont hit the same hole twice ever again.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
In terms of real world accuracy, and mostly hunting concerned, what is the average difference going to be between adding a high quality aftermarket barrel like a Bartlein to either a factory Rem 700 action, a blueprinted 700 action, or a custom action like a Defiance or maybe a Stiller?
I understand fit and finish and tolerances will likely be better with options two and three, but if all the rest of the components (quality Manners stock, Jewel trigger, NF scope, etc) are all the same, will the accuracy of those options on average be considerably better, slightly better, or perhaps a crapshoot?
I've got my eyes on a new .300 win mag build and trying to decide on my direction. I've got a 20+ year old Win M70 in 300wm in the safe that I could use as a donor action or do I sell to help pay for a custom action or to help pay for a Rem action simply for ease of finding compatible components?
My hunting seasons haven't even started yet and I'm already thinking about new rifles for the 2017 season! It's a sickness!!
In my opinion, The main advantage to having everything square and centered is that it gives the barrel (The heart of an accurate rifle) the chance to do it's best.
Accuracy, Is the combination of all parts being true and centered, and performing there best. plus the best ammo you can use/load and last but not least the shooters ability. without any one of the elements It will not be as good as it can be.
Like others, I do not re barrel with out doing a complete Blue print and pillar bed. The difference I have found is the ability to shoot any ammo well as compared to only one brand or re load when they were not blue printed and bedded.
A custom action is no more accurate than a well made and trued factory action when properly installed. They are nice and lots of people want something different so they have there place.
An untouched factory action is a pig in a poke and like a box of chocolates (You never know what you will get).
Most any factory rifle should shoot between 1 MOA and 2 MOA with some doing as well as 1/2 MOA
A well built rifle with a blue printed or custom action and a good aftermarket barrel should shoot well below 1/2 MOA with good shooter skills and fed good ammo.
Accuracy has different requirements for different people. Some are happy with 1 MOA, others want 1/2 MOA and the real anal people wont settle for any rifle not capable of sub 1/4 MOA. so you have to settle for the accuracy level you want and go from there.
It is easy to get 1 MOA. it is hard to get 1/2 MOA, from there on every reduction in group size is a challenge and has earned by leaving no stone unturned.
J E CUSTOM
I'd rather own a 0.5 - 0.7 moa rifle that maintains POI consistently day-in and day-out, than a rifle that shoots 0.2moa groups but shifts POI 1moa from week to week or month to month, or on any other unpredictable schedule. I agree that one is more apt to end up with a stable, consistent rifle when the action and barrel work are square, true and precise. It also requires a stable stock and quality bedding job. And a free floated barrel.
sable tireur
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Obviously phorwath write less and faster than I do... He and I are in agreement.
This claim has been around a long time and all too often repeated without assessing the truth behind the claim. Usually a poster will find an exception and use it to prove their point. However in this instance the claim can be reduced to extremely questionable.
By sampling several well known accuracy rifle smiths, I can put it this way:
True and blueprint a Remington 700 or Winchester 70 action when installing a new barrel. $100
Labor to install barrel onto a trued and blueprinted action $290
New Bartlein barrel for installation $325
Total = $715.00
I also know that without some sort of finagling, there aren't any 'custom' actions out there for $715.00 let alone with a barrel, trigger and possibly bottom metal.
Most of the well known and often selected custom actions are now in the $1250.00 price range and can go higher than that. If you want a real shock check out the price of aftermarket bottom metal for these 'custom' actions. Surgeon gets $326.00 for the DBM bottom metal which also includes pillars and a 5-round magazine. So with the action price of $1295 + 326 = $1621.00 which is a long way above the $715.00 for blueprinting and barreling! Yes, you can save some pennies by getting PTG hinged floor plate bottom metal or their cheap version of the DBM or even reusing the Remington bottom metal, although I couldn't quite agree with that alternative.
Now, in contribution to the original question about blueprinting a Remington, everyone except 2 posters missed the primary reason for even thinking about this process let alone paying for it.
Blueprinting an M700 action, including doing the threads, is to improve and enhance shot-to-shot CONSISTENCY over the life of the barrel. Everyone wants to attempt to quantify the accuracy potential of this process and while it can produce better accuracy it is more about consistency and consistent reliability. That's why I generally add in fixing the firing pin hole and replacing the firing pin and spring. If I've taken the time to get all the other parts straight, parallel and perpendicular then I want the firing pin to strike the primer in the same spot very time with the same force. Consistency.
Obviously this does not down play any of the other suggested improvements such as stress-free bedding, free floating the barrel or a top of the line barrel. That's why I added a Bartlein to the prices above. No cheaping out there!
All of this is nothing more than a ponderous discussion which actually solves nothing without first determining what it is that you need for the activity you wish to pursue. Then put a budget to it and see where it takes you. If your needs and desires are fairly minimal, your budget might be also. Then maybe you really could go out and buy a Savage in order to solve your dilemma.
On the other hand, like the relationship between speed and horsepower, the faster you want to go, the more it costs you. The smaller you want your groups to be consistently, the more it's going to cost you. This statement stands in spite of the exceptions claimed on the internet. Shear data supports it.
Enjoy the process! Have fun with it!
Since you used the word 'could' it allows you the wiggle room that otherwise would not exist.
This claim has been around a long time and all too often repeated without assessing the truth behind the claim. Usually a poster will find an exception and use it to prove their point. However in this instance the claim can be reduced to extremely questionable.
By sampling several well known accuracy rifle smiths, I can put it this way:
True and blueprint a Remington 700 or Winchester 70 action when installing a new barrel. $100
Labor to install barrel onto a trued and blueprinted action $290
New Bartlein barrel for installation $325
Total = $715.00
I also know that without some sort of finagling, there aren't any 'custom' actions out there for $715.00 let alone with a barrel, trigger and possibly bottom metal.
Most of the well known and often selected custom actions are now in the $1250.00 price range and can go higher than that. If you want a real shock check out the price of aftermarket bottom metal for these 'custom' actions. Surgeon gets $326.00 for the DBM bottom metal which also includes pillars and a 5-round magazine. So with the action price of $1295 + 326 = $1621.00 which is a long way above the $715.00 for blueprinting and barreling! Yes, you can save some pennies by getting PTG hinged floor plate bottom metal or their cheap version of the DBM or even reusing the Remington bottom metal, although I couldn't quite agree with that alternative.
Now, in contribution to the original question about blueprinting a Remington, everyone except 2 posters missed the primary reason for even thinking about this process let alone paying for it.
Blueprinting an M700 action, including doing the threads, is to improve and enhance shot-to-shot CONSISTENCY over the life of the barrel. Everyone wants to attempt to quantify the accuracy potential of this process and while it can produce better accuracy it is more about consistency and consistent reliability. That's why I generally add in fixing the firing pin hole and replacing the firing pin and spring. If I've taken the time to get all the other parts straight, parallel and perpendicular then I want the firing pin to strike the primer in the same spot very time with the same force. Consistency.
Obviously this does not down play any of the other suggested improvements such as stress-free bedding, free floating the barrel or a top of the line barrel. That's why I added a Bartlein to the prices above. No cheaping out there!
All of this is nothing more than a ponderous discussion which actually solves nothing without first determining what it is that you need for the activity you wish to pursue. Then put a budget to it and see where it takes you. If your needs and desires are fairly minimal, your budget might be also. Then maybe you really could go out and buy a Savage in order to solve your dilemma.
On the other hand, like the relationship between speed and horsepower, the faster you want to go, the more it costs you. The smaller you want your groups to be consistently, the more it's going to cost you. This statement stands in spite of the exceptions claimed on the internet. Shear data supports it.
Enjoy the process! Have fun with it!
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This has been a long standing debate and will probably never be agreed upon.
the facts are simple.
A properly trued factory action will perform with any custom action. It may not look as nice or have the features but from an accuracy standpoint it is just as good.
The cost break down for each.
I will use a factory Remington rifle for the example because they are the most abundant .
A complete used rifle = $400.00 to $500.00 No bottom metal or magazine is needed because
you already have it on the rifle. I will add a aftermarket trigger because I would recommend it on any factory action. other items are optional based on what a person wants. Total = $540.00 to $640.00. + $125.00 for blue printing for a total of $665.00 to $765.00.
The cheapest custom action I could find was $750.00 bare and with the floor metal and mag box
you have to add another $350.00 plus the trigger $140.00 the total minimum cost will be $1240.00. almost $600.00 dollars more just to get to this point. depending on whether or not you buy a Remington clone you could have to buy a custom stock, inleted to fit the action which will raise the price even more.
The only justification for buying a custom action is that it is what you want, the price can end up being double a well built factory action. I have nothing against ether action and recommend that if a person want's a custom action they should buy it no matter what the cost. Just don't expect it to out shoot every other factory action rifle around just because it is a "Custom" action.
PS; Even the custom actions need to be at least checked to make sure they are true. (They are machined the same way factory actions are (CNC) and are subject to have problems even though
normally the QC is better), It does happen.
In this sport, you don't have to justify anything all you have to do is pay for it.
J E CUSTOM
the facts are simple.
A properly trued factory action will perform with any custom action. It may not look as nice or have the features but from an accuracy standpoint it is just as good.
The cost break down for each.
I will use a factory Remington rifle for the example because they are the most abundant .
A complete used rifle = $400.00 to $500.00 No bottom metal or magazine is needed because
you already have it on the rifle. I will add a aftermarket trigger because I would recommend it on any factory action. other items are optional based on what a person wants. Total = $540.00 to $640.00. + $125.00 for blue printing for a total of $665.00 to $765.00.
The cheapest custom action I could find was $750.00 bare and with the floor metal and mag box
you have to add another $350.00 plus the trigger $140.00 the total minimum cost will be $1240.00. almost $600.00 dollars more just to get to this point. depending on whether or not you buy a Remington clone you could have to buy a custom stock, inleted to fit the action which will raise the price even more.
The only justification for buying a custom action is that it is what you want, the price can end up being double a well built factory action. I have nothing against ether action and recommend that if a person want's a custom action they should buy it no matter what the cost. Just don't expect it to out shoot every other factory action rifle around just because it is a "Custom" action.
PS; Even the custom actions need to be at least checked to make sure they are true. (They are machined the same way factory actions are (CNC) and are subject to have problems even though
normally the QC is better), It does happen.
In this sport, you don't have to justify anything all you have to do is pay for it.
J E CUSTOM
North Idaho Hunter
Well-Known Member
Since there has been a few gun smiths to chime in to this thread my question is this:
What do you charge for a full action blue print?
My smith charges $250 for a full work up, square, re-cut threads, lap lugs, etc. I'm beginning to think that's more then the average smith charges.
I've only had one gun built, it was blue printed, it has shot everything I have thrown at it sub MOA or much better.
What all do you pay for blue printing?
What do you charge for a full action blue print?
My smith charges $250 for a full work up, square, re-cut threads, lap lugs, etc. I'm beginning to think that's more then the average smith charges.
I've only had one gun built, it was blue printed, it has shot everything I have thrown at it sub MOA or much better.
What all do you pay for blue printing?
I just received my Rem 700 barreled action back from Bartlien a couple of months ago. A minty 70's vintage long action had a new 26" Sendaro/Varmint taper barrel installed was chambered in 6.5x284, trued, oversize recoil lug installed, and was matt finished for a total of $800. It was completed in less then 3 months and the workmanship was excellent, Aftet a short break in and minimal load development I have ended up with consistent .25MOA or better performance cold or warm, has held its zero and precision for at least 60 rounds, and cleans easily. It is mated to an A3 McMillan stock, Huber 2 stage 2.5# trigger, Huskemaw 5x20 scope.
While I'd call this a .25MOA rifle, 200 yard groups like this have been very frequent.
While I'd call this a .25MOA rifle, 200 yard groups like this have been very frequent.
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All good points.
IF you have a "proven" 700 action, then a blue print with a barrel change will be cheaper in the short term but at the end the action is still only worth $450 no matter what you spend. As long as you understand that OK.
I have seen some not all 700's that were way off when trued and needed the work, so just taking a stock 700 and throwing a new barrel on is a crap shoot at best. Odds are you might win, but no guarantee.
Here is my caveat based on two ruined hunts with a broken remington extractor on magnum bolts. I would not waste my money truing a magnum as the money spent on either doing and extractor mod or replacing the bolt makes it too expensive. Some might say that experience is unusual, but too many others have had the same thing so no 700 magnums for me without a bolt change.
Most of todays 700's will never be as smooth and reliable as a custom even after the work. Is that a concern?
Any comparison of cost using DBM is disengenous as the 700 does not have DBM to begin with. You can just as easily drop used 700 bottom metal on a custom.
At the end of the day, you take your chances. IMO with the expense of hunts due to licenses and travel etc, I will either opt for a custom in magnums or a proven trued 700 in non magnums.
IF you have a "proven" 700 action, then a blue print with a barrel change will be cheaper in the short term but at the end the action is still only worth $450 no matter what you spend. As long as you understand that OK.
I have seen some not all 700's that were way off when trued and needed the work, so just taking a stock 700 and throwing a new barrel on is a crap shoot at best. Odds are you might win, but no guarantee.
Here is my caveat based on two ruined hunts with a broken remington extractor on magnum bolts. I would not waste my money truing a magnum as the money spent on either doing and extractor mod or replacing the bolt makes it too expensive. Some might say that experience is unusual, but too many others have had the same thing so no 700 magnums for me without a bolt change.
Most of todays 700's will never be as smooth and reliable as a custom even after the work. Is that a concern?
Any comparison of cost using DBM is disengenous as the 700 does not have DBM to begin with. You can just as easily drop used 700 bottom metal on a custom.
At the end of the day, you take your chances. IMO with the expense of hunts due to licenses and travel etc, I will either opt for a custom in magnums or a proven trued 700 in non magnums.
