Is there any "big game animal density standard" used to determine the "mushroomability" of such bullets. Betcha 2 spent primers and a fired case there ain't one.
Remington 260...The new Sniper rifle?
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Stgraves260
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Bullet manufacture. Just find out what bullet you want to shoot and the company will give the the speed it takes for it to expand. Ive been told 1600 -1800fps for the 130grn Berger Vlds. The 30 cal rifles need to travel faster do to the sectional density is larger than the 264. The larger the density the faster the bullet needs to travel to expand. You can cheat the system if you use a bullet with a thin wall jacket. Some bullets are for close range and some are for long range. The Berger VLD's are for 300 + yrds . It even say so on the box when useing the hunting VLD's. Not saying they wont work at close range. They were just designed for long range. People just dont read all the fine details sometimes. Hornady ammo for instance. SST are for long range and Interbonds are for close range. If I was shooting lets say a hog at 300yrds or less maybe 400yrds, I would use the 129grn interbonds because they stay together. Its a good solid bullet. But if it was a further shot I would use the 129grn SST cause it would have great expansion. At close range the SST would fragmentate to much for my liking. Bullets are traveling at a high rate of speed when it first leaves the barrel so it needs to be a good solid bullet. But at further ranges I prefer a thiner jacket so it will expand do to lack of speed. Every caliber has its perfect waight bullet. We are all just trying to find it. Just talk to the bullet maker they will help guide you in they right direction for your needs. You just have to ask the right questions. Have a great evening. 
Gone shootin.
Gone shootin.
Stgraves260
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Hey Bart B I would'nt know that. Ok this might be a bad example. But Ill try. Take a full coke can not opened and stand on it. If you can keep your ballance the can wont colapse. But if that can was empty it would be a different story. Less density. Im not perfect but Ill try and help anyone I can. P.S. " A big game animal density standard " ? I thought we were talking about bullets? About what it takes to make a bullet expand? Sorry guess i missed something. Heck you can kill an elk with a 243 with a 95grn bullet. So I guess there is no " big game density standerd " LOL. Its funny in Texas the 2 most popular calibers are the 270 and the 300 win mag. We have hogs and deer here. In Colorado the most populer caliber is 6.5 and they have elk, moose, bear.
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The can has the same density on its walls to support weight whether full or empty, that's where the force from body weight's aligned with. There's an air pocket at the top of the can and it will compress a little bit possibly bending the top-side corner unevenly and that might crush the can.
Stgraves260
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LOL!! Ok I told you it would be a bad example. What im getting at is the bigger something is the harder it is to crush. It takes more energy to make a 200grn bullet to expand or mushroom than a 130grn bullet. I dont know how else to explain it. Even if its the same caliber or not. If a ford pinto runs into a brick wall at 55mph it will crush the car. If a 18 wheeler hit the brick wall at 55mph it might slow down a little but it will keep moving just fine. Now if the 18 wheeler hit that same wall at 100mph it would crush the truck. Its simple science. It takes more energy to knock something bigger over than something smaller. I didnt design the bullets. Im just going by what the manafacture tells me. "The proes". It takes 2000fps to make a 210grn bullet to expand from a 30 cal rifle. If for some crazy reason there was a 210grn bullet for a 6.5 cal rifle It would'nt need the 2000fps to expand. Because its less big around. Its thiner, smaller, less dense how ever you want to say it. Im trying to help the best I can. The only other way to help you is for you to go shoot a 1000yrd steel target with a 155grn bullet and then with a 210grn bullet. See for yourself witch one expands better. You can lie to anyone in the world. But you can not lie to yourself. I have done these test myself with my 260 rem and my 7mm rem mag. The manafactures that I get my bullets from seam to know what they are talking about. Gone to bed. 3 days in a row 20hr shift. Im mite tired.
Gone to bed. 3 days in a row 20hr shift. Im mite tired.Camshaft
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General belief among those who have taken game with the 210vld, myself included, is 1600-1800fps as a minimum for reliable expansion. Not tryin to step on any toes. Just relaying information that I have obtained by actual experience. Something that seems to be lacking in this thread.
rscott5028
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The heavier bullet does carry more energy at any given velocity than a lighter weight bullet.
rscott5028
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Exactly.
I'm still waiting for the millitary and LE snipers to show their credentials and explain when and why their units are dropping 223, 308, 300wm, etc for 260 Rem.
Or, was the OP about punching paper and ringing steel for sniper competitions? Which is ok too and for which the 260 Rem is a fine choice along with several others.
As for hunting... they all have their sweet spot.
-- richard
Just remember that most other countries use the 338 Lapua in combat (AI AWM) for the long range interdiction mission. In long range tactical use the AI platform is the best that I have ever used. Yes they are expensive but are easy to maintain and at least the 2 I have owned were very accurate.
Have not shot everything that is out there but for my use the 338 was the only choice because the targets I shoot at are big ugly nasty beasts with pointy tusks and tear the hell out of everything they come into contact with. Feral hogs in general do not fare well when the 250gr SMK (even tinkered with the Barnes 180 or 185's in one of my AWM's) hits them.
Now I use rifles built in the 338 Slowpoke an improved 338 Lapua for the "HOG MISSION" LOL!!!
The 260 is a big step backwards..
Have not shot everything that is out there but for my use the 338 was the only choice because the targets I shoot at are big ugly nasty beasts with pointy tusks and tear the hell out of everything they come into contact with. Feral hogs in general do not fare well when the 250gr SMK (even tinkered with the Barnes 180 or 185's in one of my AWM's) hits them.
Now I use rifles built in the 338 Slowpoke an improved 338 Lapua for the "HOG MISSION" LOL!!!
The 260 is a big step backwards..
LOL!! Ok I told you it would be a bad example. What im getting at is the bigger something is the harder it is to crush. It takes more energy to make a 200grn bullet to expand or mushroom than a 130grn bullet. I dont know how else to explain it. Even if its the same caliber or not. If a ford pinto runs into a brick wall at 55mph it will crush the car. If a 18 wheeler hit the brick wall at 55mph it might slow down a little but it will keep moving just fine. Now if the 18 wheeler hit that same wall at 100mph it would crush the truck. Its simple science. It takes more energy to knock something bigger over than something smaller. I didnt design the bullets. Im just going by what the manafacture tells me. "The proes". It takes 2000fps to make a 210grn bullet to expand from a 30 cal rifle. If for some crazy reason there was a 210grn bullet for a 6.5 cal rifle It would'nt need the 2000fps to expand. Because its less big around. Its thiner, smaller, less dense how ever you want to say it. Im trying to help the best I can. The only other way to help you is for you to go shoot a 1000yrd steel target with a 155grn bullet and then with a 210grn bullet. See for yourself witch one expands better. You can lie to anyone in the world. But you can not lie to yourself. I have done these test myself with my 260 rem and my 7mm rem mag. The manafactures that I get my bullets from seam to know what they are talking about.
Where is "Mr Lapua" (former Mr. Green Box) when you need him??? Hello Kevin?????
There is one more element that you need to take into account since you are getting technical. Bullet upset at impact---a factor in this---the twist of the barrel you are using. Just one more thing to think about lol.
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Trickymissfit
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food for thought:
90% of all deaths incured via fire arms in a combat situation are under 100 yards. Yet under fifty yards you take in about 80%. But to take this further apart, 85% of all combat deaths evolve from the use of field artillary. Airstrikes do about 10%, and infantry and the rest get the 5%. These ratios have been very stable since WWII. But you switch the game to law enforcement, and your still looking at 350 yards or less 97% of the time. Never getting past 700 yards.
So your police department runs out and buys a Barrett for about the same price of four .308's (I talking Savage 110BSA or the comparable Remington). It just lays there gathering dust! We bought two of them on a Federal grant several years ago, and they are literally worthless. Yes they go out and qualify with them a couple times a year, but otherwise will never be used. Right now they guys are using Remington .308's and a few upgraded Rock River AR's. It's all they ever need. Looks like the Remingtons will be replaced with Savage's in the future, and will probably all be .308 (there will be two or three in .300 mag or .338). They get the most bang for the buck that way (and the tests they ran favored the Savage in everyway). The one thing all of them will tell you up front is that the generic .308 works 99% of the time, and the sub calibers work 85% of the time on the first shot.
gary
I am the author of the article in the OP. I wrote it in 2006 and it was eventually published in 2007 in SGN. It's been on my web site since, and I've done a round-up of the other similar-sized 6.5mm cartridges. I won't post them, you can find them if you're interested. I do have experience with a lot of other LR cartridges, including 7RM/WSM, .300WM, .338RUM/LM, and .50BMG.
Anyone who is comparing the .260 to .338LM's is completely missing the point, and so is anyone saying that .260 sucks because it's not a 1000 yard elk cartridge.
The main points of the article are that: .260 beats .308 handily for long-range shooting; the .260 can kill anything the .308 can kill; compared to standard commercial .300WM match loads, the .260 has matching or better ballistics (other than mass on target) - with a lot less recoil and cost; the .260 hits a sweet spot for overall ballistic performance/efficiency, and utility. The article was an argument against legacy or institutional thinking that was (and still is) keeping many shooters locked into cartridges that have poor performance to cost, or performance to "shootability", ratios.
In the article, I never made any claims or proposals about sniper use of the .260, long-range hunting, etc. The only thing I mentioned is that the 6.5x55 has a long hunting history in Europe (and .260 performance is very similar).
With regard to hunting, the .260 is no .338LM or .300 RUM in terms of ability to cause damage, but if we scale down to what a .308 can do, the .260 can kill anything .308 can at those distances, and it's easier to make hits with, so that range will be extended a bit further.
Anyone who is comparing the .260 to .338LM's is completely missing the point, and so is anyone saying that .260 sucks because it's not a 1000 yard elk cartridge.
The main points of the article are that: .260 beats .308 handily for long-range shooting; the .260 can kill anything the .308 can kill; compared to standard commercial .300WM match loads, the .260 has matching or better ballistics (other than mass on target) - with a lot less recoil and cost; the .260 hits a sweet spot for overall ballistic performance/efficiency, and utility. The article was an argument against legacy or institutional thinking that was (and still is) keeping many shooters locked into cartridges that have poor performance to cost, or performance to "shootability", ratios.
In the article, I never made any claims or proposals about sniper use of the .260, long-range hunting, etc. The only thing I mentioned is that the 6.5x55 has a long hunting history in Europe (and .260 performance is very similar).
With regard to hunting, the .260 is no .338LM or .300 RUM in terms of ability to cause damage, but if we scale down to what a .308 can do, the .260 can kill anything .308 can at those distances, and it's easier to make hits with, so that range will be extended a bit further.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
Zak,
It was a good article and makes for stimulating thought/debate.
I like the 260 although I already have a couple of 6.5x284's and don't need another 6.5 right now.
It's also great to challenge institutional thinking. But, the case apparently hasn't yet been compelling enough for institutions to worry with supply and sparing issues.
"Easier" is a matter of opinion. When a 14 yo boy can shoot 1k with a 7RM, it's a stretch to say that the 308 is too much recoil. Brakes and suppressors will also narrow that gap.
You could also make the claim that the 243 Win can kill anything the 308 can at those distances. It all comes down to shot placement.
Conversely, what can the 260 kill that the 308 can't?
The 260 Rem is a fine caliber and anyone that wants one should go for it. But, there's no need to be ashamed of your 308. The difference between the 2 will often come down to the person behind the trigger and the amount of practice they put in.
JMO
-- richard
It was a good article and makes for stimulating thought/debate.
I like the 260 although I already have a couple of 6.5x284's and don't need another 6.5 right now.
It's also great to challenge institutional thinking. But, the case apparently hasn't yet been compelling enough for institutions to worry with supply and sparing issues.
"Easier" is a matter of opinion. When a 14 yo boy can shoot 1k with a 7RM, it's a stretch to say that the 308 is too much recoil. Brakes and suppressors will also narrow that gap.
You could also make the claim that the 243 Win can kill anything the 308 can at those distances. It all comes down to shot placement.
Conversely, what can the 260 kill that the 308 can't?
The 260 Rem is a fine caliber and anyone that wants one should go for it. But, there's no need to be ashamed of your 308. The difference between the 2 will often come down to the person behind the trigger and the amount of practice they put in.
JMO
-- richard
