Reloading Manuals - Pros and Cons
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Re: Really?
Me too. Just reading along and bam.
Good point Dan about old manuals and Nosler also is somewhat limited in their suggestions for powders.
I use Lee Modern Reloading Manual - 2nd Edition for most of my loads-357 mag, 357 Max, 44 mag, 223, 243. As well as the Hornady Manual.
I cross reference them with online data from Steve's Pages-- index --one of my favorites, and web sites of the powder companies to include Products - Lapua
Any loads I get from forums or shooting websites I check against these sources.
Another check against old or suspicious load data is to call or email powder companies directly. I have talked to or emailed people at Hornady, Lyman, Accurate powder, Lee Reloading and CCI Primers.
Each company has technicians or ballisticians who are more than glad to discuss any issue or share information.
I also reload 12 ga. slugs and have used Lyman data, Lightfield's data and customer support, Sabot Pressure wad - Slugs R Us / Rottweil Laser Plus Sabot Slug both their posted data and direct calls to Rich-owner.
Even then you may run into a wall-I called Remington to try to find load data on their .357 - 180 gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. "we don't suggest loads for our bullets" was the answer I got. The actual bullet was not in any of my resources and I emailed several people who were using it in rifles and tc encore handguns(as was I) and got starting loads.
Dang! What did I miss?
Me too. Just reading along and bam.
Good point Dan about old manuals and Nosler also is somewhat limited in their suggestions for powders.
I use Lee Modern Reloading Manual - 2nd Edition for most of my loads-357 mag, 357 Max, 44 mag, 223, 243. As well as the Hornady Manual.
I cross reference them with online data from Steve's Pages-- index --one of my favorites, and web sites of the powder companies to include Products - Lapua
Any loads I get from forums or shooting websites I check against these sources.
Another check against old or suspicious load data is to call or email powder companies directly. I have talked to or emailed people at Hornady, Lyman, Accurate powder, Lee Reloading and CCI Primers.
Each company has technicians or ballisticians who are more than glad to discuss any issue or share information.
I also reload 12 ga. slugs and have used Lyman data, Lightfield's data and customer support, Sabot Pressure wad - Slugs R Us / Rottweil Laser Plus Sabot Slug both their posted data and direct calls to Rich-owner.
Even then you may run into a wall-I called Remington to try to find load data on their .357 - 180 gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point. "we don't suggest loads for our bullets" was the answer I got. The actual bullet was not in any of my resources and I emailed several people who were using it in rifles and tc encore handguns(as was I) and got starting loads.
Sully2
Well-Known Member
I just picked up a Nosler manual...#7...and Im sort of impressed with it. And it takes a lot to impress me at all.
Sully2
Well-Known Member
Re: Really?
If Nosler or any company published a manual that listed the majority of powders; cases and primers for each caliber.....the manual would be a foot thick and no one could afford it!
If Nosler or any company published a manual that listed the majority of powders; cases and primers for each caliber.....the manual would be a foot thick and no one could afford it!
Wow. Getting some pretty unfriendly posting going on here. I think when someone expresses an opinion, it should be taken as just that and accusations should not be leveled unless that person is giving advice that could result in a dangerous situation for other shooters.
Re: Really?
It's already been done-
Lee's Second edition lists 160 cartridge types and over 28,000 loads--150 powders--and their manual is the same size as Noslers. Very little empty white space, lots of info.
Available for $13.99 at
Lee Modern Reloading 2nd Edition Reloading Manual
Nosler listed 6 loads in their manual and 4 on their website. In their manual there is 2 1/2 inches of empty space on their page for the 357 max and most load pages are like that. Almost as much white space as the space they use for their load chart. Even more white space on their web site-a lot more.
Dan said- "Nosler shows EXACTLY the same starting and max loads, and EXACTLY the same velocities they showed in the number 5 manual"
Hornady states on their website--
Why does load data listed in other manufacturer's loading manuals differ from others when loading the same cartridge?
Several factors can cause this. The size of the specific firearm chamber and throat dimensions, seating depth, bullet profile, propellant variances andcrimping depth can all contribute to variations in load data. The data found in the Hornady loading manual represents actual results derived in the HornadyBallistics Laboratory.
Nosler is probably telling the truth about developing their loads in their brass--but when did that happen?
I like and use Nosler bullets-357,44, 243,223-my opinion-especially 44 mag. I also use Hornady, Berry,lead cast, Remington and others----
but as is my choice-I go elsewhere for load data. Just my opinion.
also--I agree 100%--"I think when someone expresses an opinion, it should be taken as just that "
It's already been done-
Lee's Second edition lists 160 cartridge types and over 28,000 loads--150 powders--and their manual is the same size as Noslers. Very little empty white space, lots of info.
Available for $13.99 at
Lee Modern Reloading 2nd Edition Reloading Manual
Nosler listed 6 loads in their manual and 4 on their website. In their manual there is 2 1/2 inches of empty space on their page for the 357 max and most load pages are like that. Almost as much white space as the space they use for their load chart. Even more white space on their web site-a lot more.
Dan said- "Nosler shows EXACTLY the same starting and max loads, and EXACTLY the same velocities they showed in the number 5 manual"
Hornady states on their website--
Why does load data listed in other manufacturer's loading manuals differ from others when loading the same cartridge?
Several factors can cause this. The size of the specific firearm chamber and throat dimensions, seating depth, bullet profile, propellant variances andcrimping depth can all contribute to variations in load data. The data found in the Hornady loading manual represents actual results derived in the HornadyBallistics Laboratory.
Nosler is probably telling the truth about developing their loads in their brass--but when did that happen?
I like and use Nosler bullets-357,44, 243,223-my opinion-especially 44 mag. I also use Hornady, Berry,lead cast, Remington and others----
but as is my choice-I go elsewhere for load data. Just my opinion.
also--I agree 100%--"I think when someone expresses an opinion, it should be taken as just that "
Whitesheep
Well-Known Member
Sorry guys, and you especially Dan, for being on the receiving end of my frustration expressed as bad manners. This is a good site and most of the posts are well supported. My comments were not in keeping with the civility of LRH. I was over reacting to unsubstantiated statements I have encountered on some reloading sites that are, frankly, scary. Whenever someone suggests they exceed published loads and doesn't back it up with facts, I am concerned.
What I should have done, and will now, is ask Dan where he got is information/knowledge about Sierra's book loads being low as I have not encountered this statement before.
What I should have done, and will now, is ask Dan where he got is information/knowledge about Sierra's book loads being low as I have not encountered this statement before.
Whitesheep, no harm no foul. And I'm sorry about my thoughtless response.
Anyway...
If you compare most of Sierra's max loads with loads published by the powder makers, they are very conservative. Sierra's numbers are conservative even compared to other bullet maker's data also. Sierra does have--it can probably be said--the safest set of load data published. And that's not a bad thing.
As brass prices have increased, I have evolved away from shooting max loads whenever I can get a lower pressure load to work for the purpose at hand. Even if my handloads end up shooting slower than factory loads (which they often do), at least I can get my cases to last me for several firings.
When brass was cheaper, I loaded hotter and just tossed the brass after 3 or so firings. I don't feel that's an option any longer for me...
As to Nosler's numbers... any of you who have the number 5 manual and the number 6, take a look at the data... it's the same. If Nosler really re-shot those loads, you'd see some substantial differences in velocities being shown--but they're the same, to the single digit!
So either Nosler had some proprietary Nosler brass in years past when they did shoot that data--and erroneously said they shot it in Winchester brass--or (more likely) they really did shoot it in Winchester brass and now they're simply fibbing when they say on the page heading that they shot it in Nosler brass. There's no other viable option here...
Dan
Anyway...
If you compare most of Sierra's max loads with loads published by the powder makers, they are very conservative. Sierra's numbers are conservative even compared to other bullet maker's data also. Sierra does have--it can probably be said--the safest set of load data published. And that's not a bad thing.
As brass prices have increased, I have evolved away from shooting max loads whenever I can get a lower pressure load to work for the purpose at hand. Even if my handloads end up shooting slower than factory loads (which they often do), at least I can get my cases to last me for several firings.
When brass was cheaper, I loaded hotter and just tossed the brass after 3 or so firings. I don't feel that's an option any longer for me...
As to Nosler's numbers... any of you who have the number 5 manual and the number 6, take a look at the data... it's the same. If Nosler really re-shot those loads, you'd see some substantial differences in velocities being shown--but they're the same, to the single digit!
So either Nosler had some proprietary Nosler brass in years past when they did shoot that data--and erroneously said they shot it in Winchester brass--or (more likely) they really did shoot it in Winchester brass and now they're simply fibbing when they say on the page heading that they shot it in Nosler brass. There's no other viable option here...
Dan
boomtube
Well-Known Member
Goodness. What we say is all opinion, none of us have lab pressure equipment and it wouldn't much matter if we did, every firearm is a law unto itself so it shouldn't surprise anyone that the data we see in our manuals varies. I doubt that much data is 'lawyered up', the guys who produce the manuals simply tell us the results of their tests; what else should we expect?
Again, any truly experienced/knowledgeable reloader knows the ONLY safe rule we can safely follow is, "Start low, slowly work up to book max (which is as far up as we should expect a book to say) unless ...." Do that and all will go well, ignore it and you're on your own no matter if the powder charge is higher or lower than the book. And it works everytime; no matter how many manuals we may buy, our individual gun's max will remain the same.
Again, any truly experienced/knowledgeable reloader knows the ONLY safe rule we can safely follow is, "Start low, slowly work up to book max (which is as far up as we should expect a book to say) unless ...." Do that and all will go well, ignore it and you're on your own no matter if the powder charge is higher or lower than the book. And it works everytime; no matter how many manuals we may buy, our individual gun's max will remain the same.
lyotehunter
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2012
- Messages
- 219
i look at reloading manuels as a reference only
BINGO!!
Load manuals are no different than medical guides....that's it, they are just guides. Sure they all say, "never exceed maximum loads" but they have to. If I stopped all of my own loads where some book says I have to, then in most all cases I've under-loaded the potential of my rifles, especially when I used to shoot factory rifles.
Load books are guides, load smartly, use them to start, but keep working up, regardless of what a book says to find out safe max in your rifle if that is the goal. It is my goal.
So far the loads i have developed using Berger bullets have corresponded very well with the data in the new Berger manual.
I have not developed many but in three different calibers the max listed loads were where I would normally stop due to pressure signs in loads beyond those listed. My chronograph readings also agreed with what the Berger manual listed,
As far as the Sierra manual being conservative... in a few loads I have been able to exceed the loads listed in the manual but overall it also was very close. Some of the loads in the Speer #9 manual are dangerously hot(I think especially in 4831 loads...somewhere I saw that the old 4831 was closer to the new 7828)!
I have been reloading since I was 13 and load for other people. 35 years later I can say the manuals are mostly pretty good and anyone who exceeds the listed data on a regular basis has either ignored pressure signs, has a long throat or other pressure decreasing feature on their rifle, is **** lucky, or is extremely careful at managing their shooting of very edgy cartridges(I have done that a few times mainly for cold weather elk loads).
I have not developed many but in three different calibers the max listed loads were where I would normally stop due to pressure signs in loads beyond those listed. My chronograph readings also agreed with what the Berger manual listed,
As far as the Sierra manual being conservative... in a few loads I have been able to exceed the loads listed in the manual but overall it also was very close. Some of the loads in the Speer #9 manual are dangerously hot(I think especially in 4831 loads...somewhere I saw that the old 4831 was closer to the new 7828)!
I have been reloading since I was 13 and load for other people. 35 years later I can say the manuals are mostly pretty good and anyone who exceeds the listed data on a regular basis has either ignored pressure signs, has a long throat or other pressure decreasing feature on their rifle, is **** lucky, or is extremely careful at managing their shooting of very edgy cartridges(I have done that a few times mainly for cold weather elk loads).
Sully2
Well-Known Member
Re: Really?
Here's an opinion......I wouldnt trust Lee load data if it were printed on gold foil and NOHING that has to be loaded with a tiny "coke spoon" is going to work for me!!!
Here's an opinion......I wouldnt trust Lee load data if it were printed on gold foil and NOHING that has to be loaded with a tiny "coke spoon" is going to work for me!!!
