therifleman556
Well-Known Member
And Winchester is a Mauser knockoff, Howa a Remington knockoff, and the Scirocco a Ballistic Tip knockoff if you want to look at it that way.
Nosler e-tip or Barnes LRX?
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TXAoudadKlr
Well-Known Member
adam32
Well-Known Member
Yet again...everything you said is incorrect.
If anything (don't take this wrong Steve), the Hammer is similar to the GS Custom Bullets, but still not even close just due to the shape and material used.
By your logic, anything lead free is a Barnes knock off...shape, material, design, bands vs grooves, polymer tip vs open tip, etc doesn't make any difference.
Yes and my Kimber is a Winchester Clone. Do you like the word Clone better? Knock Off does have a negative connotation attached to it.
Yes. Every monolithic copper hollow point Bullet made is a Barnes Knock-Off/Clone. If you don't think so than you are as ignorant as you claim me to be. "Talk sense to a Fool and he'll call you foolish".
adam32
Well-Known Member
With your logic then, every car made since the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is just a knock/off clone.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Whether you want to "call" them a knock off or not, what they are, is an improvement on other copper mono bullets that are an improvement on Barnes bullets.
Since I joined this Forum 11 years ago, I have been in numerous bullet/ballistic discussion/debates. I have studied external and terminal ballistics in great depth.
Let's go through this step by step. First, this the Long Range Hunting forums. The LRX is a marginal LR hunting bullet. Not opinion, FACT. Why? Because it has a marginal BC because of its marginal form factor. Hammers have better form factors and better BC's... FACT. Flatter and farther shooting. Also, Barnes made of a harder alloy and have a different expansion design. Let's break that down more. Plastic tips are touted as expansion facilitators where in reality they don't always perform as advertised. (BTW, I've had Barnes plastic tips break in the magazine on me) The FACT is that a hollow point is the best facilitator of expansion as long as the opening is large enough. Hammers have more than adequate HP's. Hammers softer alloy also facilitates expansion. Barnes are designed to be a controlled expansion, mushrooming bullet. Mushrooming bullets create a temporary wound channel due to their rounded frontal, that partially closes behind the bullet. This more so in cup and core controlled expansion bullets. The Hammers are designed to shed their petals leaving a flatter frontal. Flat frontals cause more permanent wound channel damage than rounded frontals and continue in in straight line penetration. The large petals act as shredder blades to cause secondary wound channel havoc. Do you notice any difference yet? Hammer drive bands are designed much different than the Barnes. That and the softer alloy create less friction and pressure on the lands and grooves resulting in higher velocities. Machined monos such as CEB's, GS, and Hammers are extremely consistent in dimensions and weight, more so than Barnes, resulting in more consistent internal and external ballistics, resulting in more precision shooting, a requirement for Long Range Shooting and Hunting.
The only thing better about the Barnes is they're CHEAPER. I don't like that word. So, the cost of the average reliable precision LR rifle set up is probably $5K - $7K, not to mention the reloading equipment, brass, range finders, etc and we're concerned that higher quality bullets cost a few dollars more?
Barnes Bullets (and E-Tips) are OK bullets. I've shot both. They are what they are and they aren't what they aren't, and they don't match up to Hammers. I'm not posting this for your benefit because I don't believe you will listen to reason. You've dug yourself a pride hole that would require too much humility to climb out of. I'm posting this for the OP and others following this thread.
When you post misinformation and vague generalities you loose all credibility. You offer no facts or pertinent information to back your position. The ignorant should remain silent less they show their ignorance.
Since I joined this Forum 11 years ago, I have been in numerous bullet/ballistic discussion/debates. I have studied external and terminal ballistics in great depth.
Let's go through this step by step. First, this the Long Range Hunting forums. The LRX is a marginal LR hunting bullet. Not opinion, FACT. Why? Because it has a marginal BC because of its marginal form factor. Hammers have better form factors and better BC's... FACT. Flatter and farther shooting. Also, Barnes made of a harder alloy and have a different expansion design. Let's break that down more. Plastic tips are touted as expansion facilitators where in reality they don't always perform as advertised. (BTW, I've had Barnes plastic tips break in the magazine on me) The FACT is that a hollow point is the best facilitator of expansion as long as the opening is large enough. Hammers have more than adequate HP's. Hammers softer alloy also facilitates expansion. Barnes are designed to be a controlled expansion, mushrooming bullet. Mushrooming bullets create a temporary wound channel due to their rounded frontal, that partially closes behind the bullet. This more so in cup and core controlled expansion bullets. The Hammers are designed to shed their petals leaving a flatter frontal. Flat frontals cause more permanent wound channel damage than rounded frontals and continue in in straight line penetration. The large petals act as shredder blades to cause secondary wound channel havoc. Do you notice any difference yet? Hammer drive bands are designed much different than the Barnes. That and the softer alloy create less friction and pressure on the lands and grooves resulting in higher velocities. Machined monos such as CEB's, GS, and Hammers are extremely consistent in dimensions and weight, more so than Barnes, resulting in more consistent internal and external ballistics, resulting in more precision shooting, a requirement for Long Range Shooting and Hunting.
The only thing better about the Barnes is they're CHEAPER. I don't like that word. So, the cost of the average reliable precision LR rifle set up is probably $5K - $7K, not to mention the reloading equipment, brass, range finders, etc and we're concerned that higher quality bullets cost a few dollars more?
Barnes Bullets (and E-Tips) are OK bullets. I've shot both. They are what they are and they aren't what they aren't, and they don't match up to Hammers. I'm not posting this for your benefit because I don't believe you will listen to reason. You've dug yourself a pride hole that would require too much humility to climb out of. I'm posting this for the OP and others following this thread.
When you post misinformation and vague generalities you loose all credibility. You offer no facts or pertinent information to back your position. The ignorant should remain silent less they show their ignorance.
Amen to that Steve ... and thanks for innovators like you and Brian in providing us more choices.
Cheers!
Ed
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Keep shooting them but I'll bet I can take your Creedmoor and find a Barnes Bullet that shoots extremely well in it.
And performs nothing like the Hammer. Not saying Barnes don't perform well in certain situations. The Hammer performs completely different from the second it engages the rifling.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? Never said they were identical. The petals form by the hollow point break off in the Hammer, fold back on the Barnes. I never even said that Hammer wasn't an improvement over the Barnes design. I only said I didn't think their extra cost was worth it to me when I'm very pleased what Barnes Bullets have done for me. You call it an improvement. I call it a knock-off. Sorry y'all got Butt Hurt 0ver my hyperbole in my first post on this. I wonder; Does Hammer pay Barnes any Royalty Fees? Maybe someone can answer that. Oh, I'll lose much sleep over you questioning my credibility. You are correct, this IS a Long Range Hunting Forum. Long Range means different distances to most people. You really should have just stopped with your first sentence in this post. The rest is just regurgitation.
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adam32
Well-Known Member
Royalties for what? They are nothing alike except both are lead free.
Does Hornady pay royalties for their Interbond to Nosler since it's a bonded lead bullet like the AccuBond?
