New old .25 cal wildcat

Oh yeah I'm familiar with the freebore and twist rate side of the equation. And very aware of the pricy wby brass - I do have properly stamped .257 wby brass but also loads with brass formed from both .264 Winnie and 7mm rem mag - no issues with that at all except the neck is short by a bit. L

But that has little to do with case capacity. I just meant, if you were starting with a barrel blank and could specify twist and freebore and barrel length to your spec, is there really much room to go faster than the .257 weatherby or 25-7mm rem/.25-264 win/25-300WSM - anything in that capacity range - or does the law of diminishing returns dictate it's a fools errand? Legit curious about this, chatted a while ago with someone with a .257 RUM, have given serious thought to a .25-300 weatherby.
There would be no need to create a .257/.264 Win Mag if .257 brass was readily available and freebore shortened a bit in the Wby with twist rate tightened. Performance is identical. I say that; but I may have stumbled upon something. Remember I said this cartridge is EXTREMELY forgiving and has shot EVERYTHING in the limited break-in process to ragged hole (or nearly so) standards. Some cartridges are just inherently easy to load accurately. It's not a BR case for sure, but it's as easy to load super accurate ammo for. Case forming is no more effort than truing up new cases prior to loading anything. The one negative I can point to is the lack of hunting bullets available. It's 133gr Bergers or nothing if you plan on shooting at anything that might accidentally step out within 100 yards unexpectedly. It's a beast of a prospect for 500+yd shots. Hammer makes a couple bullets that might fill the void. I am also tempted to try the Barnes TSX 115 grain. I believe it might stand up to the rotational forces at work, but 1 way to find out. It is longer than a typical 120 grain .257 bullet, and likes being jumped to the lands a little bit. The Hammers might prove effective for closer work. This is the 1 aspect that has prevented me from building this 3 years ago. I was sure hoping Hornady would make an ELD-X version of the 134-grain ELD-M. I can slow the action down a little for the lighter bullets for closer work. All I'd need do is change powders to the likes of N570 or US869. I could cram the case full and keep velocities under 3200, I'm sure. That hasn't bothered the ELD-M, which isn't constructed as tough as a monolithic bullet.

As a side note, I found a set of C-H forming dies for a. 25 Souper for CHEAP! $20 cheap! I think I'd be a fool not to grab them and stick them in my back pocket for a rainy, boring day! A 9-twist in a Souper sounds appealing!
 
1 more thought. I have plenty of 6.5x300 Wby brass. I COULD have necked that down. Didn't for 2 reasons. 1 obvious and 1 maybe not so obvious if you haven't built a few custom rifles. The first is barrel life. I MIGHT get through load development before the throat is gone. Every outing would require a longer seating depth. This leads into the 2nd problem. Overall cartridge length. A case the length of a Weatherby based on the .300 Wby OR an STW-based case would need at least 4 inches of magazine space with a heavy VLD bullet. This narrows your action and bottom metal choices. BAT Machine Igniter with PT&G BDL bottom metal will give you 4 inches of space. This is way beyond CIP length. This is a type of cartridge you'd have to start with a bottom metal and stock that would accommodate it, then pick an action that would work with both. Choices would be highly limited and your wait time likely very long. Same with Ultra Mag cases.
 
I had 2 .25 ICL Magnums that were basically necked down .264 Winchester Improved's with 45° degree shoulders. One was a heavy barrel and the other was a sporter weight, both had 1-10 twist rates and were build on 700 Remingtons. Both shot great with 120 grain bullets. Sold both thinking I'd go to a custom action and a faster twist rate for some of the new heavy weight bullets out there. Haven't gotten around to that yet.
I like the Juenkes' ICL wildcats too. I supposed I could give them due credit on my .338 Thor (NMI) since it has a 45-degree shoulder angle.
 
The one negative I can point to is the lack of hunting bullets available. It's 133gr Bergers or nothing if you plan on shooting at anything that might accidentally step out within 100 yards unexpectedly. It's a beast of a prospect for 500+yd shots.
I guess that depends on personal preference/intended purpose. My .257 WBY was built primarily to propel heavy for caliber bullets. I have 131 BJ (unfortunately, you cannot get them anymore), 133/135 Bergers, 134 ELD-M, and 145 Black Hole (they make 120s and 130s too). I also have lighter than 130 in lead and lead-free bullets. That's plenty of choices for me. Chinchaga is supposed to be working on a 160-grainer.
 
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This IS a new/old wildcat:

1695236118503.png






257-CONDOR.jpg
257-CONDOR-FULL.jpg

This is the original story about the 257 Condor taken from GUNS MAGAZINE, Jan 1960
When a competent engineer decides to design a wildcat cartridge, some old ideas are given some new twists. The usual wildcatter reshapes an existing case, uses existing components, and the gunsmith chambers an existing barrel. Sometimes the loads are actually chronographed; and, rarely pressure tests are made. Sensational figures are arrived at, the new cartridge is given a fanciful name, and the proud originator is in business with a new wildcat. The story .on the .257 Condor is quite different. In 1946, Dr Ramon Somavia conceived the idea that a projectile of unusually high sectional density would exhibit unusual ballistic characteristics, and he set out to prove it. Now, fifty barrels and many years later the .257 Condor is a reality and no longer a wildcat. The name is copyrighted, patents have been applied for on the design; and the cartridges, the cases, and the special bullets are readily available to the shooter or the hand loader here, from Norma-Precision, Inc., South Lansing, New York. The Somavia Ranch near Hollister, Calif., is one reason for the Condor design. Deer are numerous on those rolling grassy hills, but the choicer ones always seem to be five hundred yards out, with little cover from which to stalk them. Hence, the first requisite was a cartridge which would show a flat trajectory. Second, since Dr. Somavia does considerable hunting in Alaska, and Canada, the cartridge must be certain on heavy game animals. Flat trajectory must be achieved without the excessively high velocity which blows up 8-bullet on the hide or the first large bone encountered.
Deep penetration was wanted. Muzzle velocity is impressive on paper, but velocity which counts is that delivered to the animal a few hundred yards out. Hunters have noticed that the 7×57 Mauser 175 grain bullet, and the 6.5 mm. Mannlicher•Schoenauer 160 grain bullet exhibited killing qualities out of all proportion to their size or paper ballistics. They also showed a lot of remaining velocity, compared to modest initial velocity. After a number of experiments with a .30 caliber, the decision was made to go to a .25 caliber with a 160 grain bullet. Calculation indicated a rifling pitch of 6lh inches would stabilize the bullet, but testing determined that better accuracy and velocity were achieved with a 7 inch pitch. Very short cases developed more pressure than a longer one of the same capacity. Efficiency increased as shoulder angles approached 30 degrees; but with the angle sharpened excessively it was found that combustion was increasingly more difficult to control, with the powder charge being very critical, developing sudden pressure peaks. Hence, the shoulder angle was cut back and given a semi-venturi shape. The belted Magnum case was cut to .30-'06 length so it would function in a standard action, and was shaped to hold 64 grains of average IMR powder to the shoulder.
Once off the beaten track, the experimenter encounters many difficulties. With the required rapid-pitch rifling, at an effective velocity, the bullets disintegrated in the air. In the long bearing surface bullets, cores were melting through excessive bore friction. Centrifugal force from spin then exploded them. Tested was a two-diameter bullet, with little improvement; then solid copper bullets. Made to original dimensions, they weighted only 145 grains. Disintegration stopped, but the light bullet lost velocity so rapidly that it was nose-diving beyond 300 yards. With no practical way of reducing bore friction or centrifugal force, it seemed to me that the only way out lay in reducing the heat transfer which was melting .bullet cores. Copper jackets transmit heat rapidly, so I suggested the use of steel jackets. Atkinson & Marquart in Prescott, Arizona, made swaging dies and a supply of steel jacketed bullets using Shelby tubing. These bullets proved the theory, stopping disintegration, maintaining good trajectory, and giving sensational results on game. But best Shelby tubing available proved to be far from uniform in hardness, so accuracy suffered, and the bare steel bullets were a bit rough on bores. One barrel washed out completely with 207 rounds.
We tried to get a bullet maker to furnish bullets jacketed with Trio-Metal, like the Government .30 M-2 Alternate bullet or the Norma match bullet. These steel jackets have a layer of Gilding Metal on either side, the inner layer protecting the drawing punches while the outer protects the bore. No bullet makers in this country were found willing to tackle the problem. Amund Enger, President of Norma-Projektilfabrik in Sweden then accepted the project. An order was placed with the Swedish firm of E. H. Sheldon of Norma-Precision in South Lansing, New York, for 100,000 bullets, 12,000 cases, and 500 boxes of loaded cartridges. Test barrels and the chamber reamers for making more barrels and a pressure gun barrel were shipped to Sweden. Norma finally solved the problem in drawing the long 160 grain steel bullet cups; then speedily filled the contract. Swedish powders proved useable, and pressure and velocity tests showed that the American powders best adapted to the new cartridge are IMR #4350, LVlR #4831, H•570, and Machine Gun powder. Erosion being still a problem, tests were made on barrel steels by George Hageman, well known California Bench Rest Shooter. Groups were fired within time limits, so that the barrels would heat up, approximating actual use.
It was found that the usual SAE #4140 Chrome Molybdenum barrel would wash out with 300 shots. Timken barrel steel then was tried. With a normal cartridge such as the .30•'06, this has given much the same useful life as SAE #4140 steel; while under conditions of high erosion, it was fired with 1000 cartridges of .257 Condor caliber. Then an additional 25 cartridges were fired on a target, to give a minute of angle group. This barrel was then cut for inspection, revealing an advance of the forcing cone or "Ieed" plus considerable heat•checking, but no major gas wash•out in the rifling throat. Beyond 5″ from the chamber, the rifling was in good condition. Maintaining a land diameter of .250″, various groove depths were tried. At .256″, pressure ran high while velocity dropped. The .257″ groove diameter proved useable; but a groove diameter of .258″ showed a velocity gain of approximately 200 feet per second at the same pressure, with no loss of accuracy. At .259″ groove diameter, pressure dropped more but groups started to enlarge. Rifles were then made up for testing on game. One was taken to Alaska and the Yukon, where nine caribou were shot. With deer numerous on the Somavia Ranch, visiting friends tried the Condor on them during the California open season. The wild burro, tough and lethargic, is difficult to convince that he is dead. He is unprotected in Arizona, so we tested the new rifle on this noblest varmint of them all.
With a hit in other than a very vital spot, not even the .357 Magnum would give a quick kill. Feeling that hits directly on vital spots with any sizeable caliber would quickly drop an animal, we concentrated on making poor hits. Some few deer were hit thru the chest area, but a majority of all the game was deliberately paunch-shot or struck thru the hips. To the dismay of the guide, some of the caribou were paunched. Regardless of the location of any solid hit, or the size of the animal, the reaction was almost invariably the same. It would stop, appear dazed for an interval of fifteen or twenty seconds, back up a few steps, and then collapse. We attribute this unusual reaction to the high rotational spin of the bullet. First, there is almost inevitably a certain amount of yawing or cork-screwing when a very long bullet is spun fast, to create the effect of a larger-diameter bullet. The high rate of spin causes the particles of immediately displaced tissue to become secondary projectiles, to cause wide wound damage and to paralyze nerve centres. That one of the primary aims of deep penetration in a heavy animal was achieved is evidenced by the fact that few of these bullets have been recovered. As evidence of flat trajectory, when this rifle is sighted in at 200 yards, the point of impact is ¥2 inch above the point of aim at 100 yards. Sighted in for 300 yards, that point of impact is 2 inches high at 100 yards.
Chronograph results at 20 feet indicate accurate loads using various powders run a mean of approximately 2900 f.p.s. with the 160 grain Norma bullet. With 54.5 grains IMR #4350 and Winchester #120 primers, five shots bracketed 2902-2945 f.p.s. with an average velocity of 2918 f.p.s. Using IMR #4831,57 grains, and Federal #210 primers, five shots averaged out 2919 f.p.s. with a velocity spread of 27 f.p.s. Using Remington #9Y2 primers and 64 grains Machine Gun powder, velocity averaged 2844 f.p.s. and with the same load and Federal #215, the average velocity was a little hotter, 2893 f.p.s. A top load of 60 grains IMR #4350 backing the 120 grain Norma bullet using Federal 210s yielded an average velocity of 3394 f.p.s. with a low of 3375 and a high for five shots of 3436 f.p.s. The .257 Condor is a rifle for use on the heaviest American game, particularly at the longer ranges. It isn't primarily a varmint rifle, although it shows high velocity with a 120 grain bullet, while retaining good accuracy. With either bullet, recoil is light, about 15 foot pounds with the heaviest loading and the 160 grain bullet in a seven pound rifle. "Condor" is copyrighted, and may be used only under license. Patents have been applied for on the cartridge, with the claims based on the principle of the high rotational spin of the bullet giving aerodynamic lift, to contribute to the flat trajectory. American and Canadian rights to the Condor have been retained by Dr. Somavia. Other foreign rights have been assigned to AB Norma Projektilfabrik. National U. S. distributor is Fred F. Wells, 514 West Gurley Street, Prescott, Arizona. He will license shops to build the Condor and use the name. Some rifle builders already licensed are Adobe Walls Gun Shop, 2411 Wilshire Blvd., Santa Monica, Cal.
 
This IS a new/old wildcat:

View attachment 495505





257-CONDOR.jpg
257-CONDOR-FULL.jpg

This is the original story about the 257 Condor taken from GUNS MAGAZINE, Jan 1960
When a competent engineer decides to design a wildcat cartridge, some old ideas are given some new twists. The usual wildcatter reshapes an existing case, uses existing components, and the gunsmith chambers an existing barrel. Sometimes the loads are actually chronographed; and, rarely pressure tests are made. Sensational figures are arrived at, the new cartridge is given a fanciful name, and the proud originator is in business with a new wildcat. The story .on the .257 Condor is quite different. In 1946, Dr Ramon Somavia conceived the idea that a projectile of unusually high sectional density would exhibit unusual ballistic characteristics, and he set out to prove it. Now, fifty barrels and many years later the .257 Condor is a reality and no longer a wildcat. The name is copyrighted, patents have been applied for on the design; and the cartridges, the cases, and the special bullets are readily available to the shooter or the hand loader here, from Norma-Precision, Inc., South Lansing, New York. The Somavia Ranch near Hollister, Calif., is one reason for the Condor design. Deer are numerous on those rolling grassy hills, but the choicer ones always seem to be five hundred yards out, with little cover from which to stalk them. Hence, the first requisite was a cartridge which would show a flat trajectory. Second, since Dr. Somavia does considerable hunting in Alaska, and Canada, the cartridge must be certain on heavy game animals. Flat trajectory must be achieved without the excessively high velocity which blows up 8-bullet on the hide or the first large bone encountered.
Deep penetration was wanted. Muzzle velocity is impressive on paper, but velocity which counts is that delivered to the animal a few hundred yards out. Hunters have noticed that the 7×57 Mauser 175 grain bullet, and the 6.5 mm. Mannlicher•Schoenauer 160 grain bullet exhibited killing qualities out of all proportion to their size or paper ballistics. They also showed a lot of remaining velocity, compared to modest initial velocity. After a number of experiments with a .30 caliber, the decision was made to go to a .25 caliber with a 160 grain bullet. Calculation indicated a rifling pitch of 6lh inches would stabilize the bullet, but testing determined that better accuracy and velocity were achieved with a 7 inch pitch. Very short cases developed more pressure than a longer one of the same capacity. Efficiency increased as shoulder angles approached 30 degrees; but with the angle sharpened excessively it was found that combustion was increasingly more difficult to control, with the powder charge being very critical, developing sudden pressure peaks. Hence, the shoulder angle was cut back and given a semi-venturi shape. The belted Magnum case was cut to .30-'06 length so it would function in a standard action, and was shaped to hold 64 grains of average IMR powder to the shoulder.
Once off the beaten track, the experimenter encounters many difficulties. With the required rapid-pitch rifling, at an effective velocity, the bullets disintegrated in the air. In the long bearing surface bullets, cores were melting through excessive bore friction. Centrifugal force from spin then exploded them. Tested was a two-diameter bullet, with little improvement; then solid copper bullets. Made to original dimensions, they weighted only 145 grains. Disintegration stopped, but the light bullet lost velocity so rapidly that it was nose-diving beyond 300 yards. With no practical way of reducing bore friction or centrifugal force, it seemed to me that the only way out lay in reducing the heat transfer which was melting .bullet cores. Copper jackets transmit heat rapidly, so I suggested the use of steel jackets. Atkinson & Marquart in Prescott, Arizona, made swaging dies and a supply of steel jacketed bullets using Shelby tubing. These bullets proved the theory, stopping disintegration, maintaining good trajectory, and giving sensational results on game. But best Shelby tubing available proved to be far from uniform in hardness, so accuracy suffered, and the bare steel bullets were a bit rough on bores. One barrel washed out completely with 207 rounds.
We tried to get a bullet maker to furnish bullets jacketed with Trio-Metal, like the Government .30 M-2 Alternate bullet or the Norma match bullet. These steel jackets have a layer of Gilding Metal on either side, the inner layer protecting the drawing punches while the outer protects the bore. No bullet makers in this country were found willing to tackle the problem. Amund Enger, President of Norma-Projektilfabrik in Sweden then accepted the project. An order was placed with the Swedish firm of E. H. Sheldon of Norma-Precision in South Lansing, New York, for 100,000 bullets, 12,000 cases, and 500 boxes of loaded cartridges. Test barrels and the chamber reamers for making more barrels and a pressure gun barrel were shipped to Sweden. Norma finally solved the problem in drawing the long 160 grain steel bullet cups; then speedily filled the contract. Swedish powders proved useable, and pressure and velocity tests showed that the American powders best adapted to the new cartridge are IMR #4350, LVlR #4831, H•570, and Machine Gun powder. Erosion being still a problem, tests were made on barrel steels by George Hageman, well known California Bench Rest Shooter. Groups were fired within time limits, so that the barrels would heat up, approximating actual use.
It was found that the usual SAE #4140 Chrome Molybdenum barrel would wash out with 300 shots. Timken barrel steel then was tried. With a normal cartridge such as the .30•'06, this has given much the same useful life as SAE #4140 steel; while under conditions of high erosion, it was fired with 1000 cartridges of .257 Condor caliber. Then an additional 25 cartridges were fired on a target, to give a minute of angle group. This barrel was then cut for inspection, revealing an advance of the forcing cone or "Ieed" plus considerable heat•checking, but no major gas wash•out in the rifling throat. Beyond 5″ from the chamber, the rifling was in good condition. Maintaining a land diameter of .250″, various groove depths were tried. At .256″, pressure ran high while velocity dropped. The .257″ groove diameter proved useable; but a groove diameter of .258″ showed a velocity gain of approximately 200 feet per second at the same pressure, with no loss of accuracy. At .259″ groove diameter, pressure dropped more but groups started to enlarge. Rifles were then made up for testing on game. One was taken to Alaska and the Yukon, where nine caribou were shot. With deer numerous on the Somavia Ranch, visiting friends tried the Condor on them during the California open season. The wild burro, tough and lethargic, is difficult to convince that he is dead. He is unprotected in Arizona, so we tested the new rifle on this noblest varmint of them all.
With a hit in other than a very vital spot, not even the .357 Magnum would give a quick kill. Feeling that hits directly on vital spots with any sizeable caliber would quickly drop an animal, we concentrated on making poor hits. Some few deer were hit thru the chest area, but a majority of all the game was deliberately paunch-shot or struck thru the hips. To the dismay of the guide, some of the caribou were paunched. Regardless of the location of any solid hit, or the size of the animal, the reaction was almost invariably the same. It would stop, appear dazed for an interval of fifteen or twenty seconds, back up a few steps, and then collapse. We attribute this unusual reaction to the high rotational spin of the bullet. First, there is almost inevitably a certain amount of yawing or cork-screwing when a very long bullet is spun fast, to create the effect of a larger-diameter bullet. The high rate of spin causes the particles of immediately displaced tissue to become secondary projectiles, to cause wide wound damage and to paralyze nerve centres. That one of the primary aims of deep penetration in a heavy animal was achieved is evidenced by the fact that few of these bullets have been recovered. As evidence of flat trajectory, when this rifle is sighted in at 200 yards, the point of impact is ¥2 inch above the point of aim at 100 yards. Sighted in for 300 yards, that point of impact is 2 inches high at 100 yards.
Chronograph results at 20 feet indicate accurate loads using various powders run a mean of approximately 2900 f.p.s. with the 160 grain Norma bullet. With 54.5 grains IMR #4350 and Winchester #120 primers, five shots bracketed 2902-2945 f.p.s. with an average velocity of 2918 f.p.s. Using IMR #4831,57 grains, and Federal #210 primers, five shots averaged out 2919 f.p.s. with a velocity spread of 27 f.p.s. Using Remington #9Y2 primers and 64 grains Machine Gun powder, velocity averaged 2844 f.p.s. and with the same load and Federal #215, the average velocity was a little hotter, 2893 f.p.s. A top load of 60 grains IMR #4350 backing the 120 grain Norma bullet using Federal 210s yielded an average velocity of 3394 f.p.s. with a low of 3375 and a high for five shots of 3436 f.p.s. The .257 Condor is a rifle for use on the heaviest American game, particularly at the longer ranges. It isn't primarily a varmint rifle, although it shows high velocity with a 120 grain bullet, while retaining good accuracy. With either bullet, recoil is light, about 15 foot pounds with the heaviest loading and the 160 grain bullet in a seven pound rifle. "Condor" is copyrighted, and may be used only under license. Patents have been applied for on the cartridge, with the claims based on the principle of the high rotational spin of the bullet giving aerodynamic lift, to contribute to the flat trajectory. American and Canadian rights to the Condor have been retained by Dr. Somavia. Other foreign rights have been assigned to AB Norma Projektilfabrik. National U. S. distributor is Fred F. Wells, 514 West Gurley Street, Prescott, Arizona. He will license shops to build the Condor and use the name. Some rifle builders already licensed are Adobe Walls Gun Shop, 2411 Wilshire Blvd., Santa Monica, Cal.
All things old are new again. If this would have come out in the last few years, many people would praise it as a modern design and tech. So many things in the shooting world were developed prior to modern powders, bullets and scopes, and thus, they never caught on.
 
I guess that depends on personal preference/intended purpose. My .257 WBY was built primarily to propel the heavy for caliber bullets. I have 131 BJ (unfortunately you cannot get them anymore), 133/135 Bergers, 143 ELD-M, and 145 Black Hole (they make 120s and 130s too). I also have lighter than 130 in lead and lead free bullets. That's plenty of choices for me. Chinchaga is supposed to be working on a 160 grained.
Blackjack, as you said, is off the table. Wasn't designed as a hunting bullet anyway. Neither are the 135 Bergers, 134 ELD-Ms, or Blackholes (unless you order them as the bonded version - Blaine told me himself he had no experience with on-game terminal performance). So out of all those you mentioned, there is 1 true hunting bullet north of 130 grains FOR MEDIUM AND LARGE GAME. Now might you use the others for hunting deer and elk? Obviously you can. But it wouldn't be my preference for close in shots. I am going to expand my options, though, with some Hammers and the 115gr Barnes.

As far as a 160gr anything, I'd beed to replace my barrel with something much faster in twist than 7.5 here at sea level. This one just shoots too good to do that. Looking at building a .27 Nosler for that weight class.
 
Quoted @.300 Dakota

"Blackjack, as you said, is off the table. Wasn't designed as a hunting bullet anyway. Neither are the 135 Bergers, 134 ELD-Ms, or Blackholes (unless you order them as the bonded version - Blaine told me himself he had no experience with on-game terminal performance). So out of all those you mentioned, there is 1 true hunting bullet north of 130 grains FOR MEDIUM AND LARGE GAME"
———————————————————————

Good Evening @.300 Dakota! Let me just clarify that I respect your opinion and you have every right to feel the way you do towards those bullets you mentioned. I'm not chiming in to bash or disrespect you or the way you fell about those bullets you mentioned. That being said I would share my experiences using those bullets you mentioned, I am in no way an expert and I'm learning everyday as I'm human.

First off like Bergers the Blackjack from what I understand was made for target and long range shooting. Like anything else shooters and hunters pushed the limits and to everyone's surprise they are extremely deadly when used correctly. My personal experiences with the 131 BJ's was in my 25-06 ai and 257 wby mag. Ive killed monster bulls, feral cattle, hogs, sheep, goats and axis deer. Most of them one shot kills except when I mess up a shot, they expanded and penetrated deep through cow shoulders to thin and lanky 80 lb goats. The only problem I ever had was they was discontinued and I like a lot of others got ripped off.

So I went with the next best thing the Berger 133 elite and 135 LRHT again in my 25-06 AI and 257 wby mag. Both shown exceptional performance almost identical to the 131 BJ's with surprisingly the 135 LRHT being a little better in accuracy and having a better wound channel. I've shot feral cattle out to 500 yds with these bullets as well as up close under 50 yds and they blew right through bone leaving a golf ball to tennis ball openings.

Out of this whole bunch I'm in love with the 145 blackhole bullets! So much so I made a reamer for a 25-7 PRC to get the speed and make full use of the higher BC and better ballistics. I've made head shots in feral cattle, front shoulder shots, paddle bone shots, quartering shots and even bad stomach shots. The blackhole done its job each and every time. I never had one dissolve and they always expanded and travel deep or just pass right thru. I'm curious as to how they will do with the extra speed my 25-7PRC will put out. Maybe then I will need a bonded version but at 257 wby @ 3200 fps I don't need to have one yet.

These are my experiences and I'm open to hear about any real world experiences you have as well. I have lots of pics documenting my claims but I'm not here to brag or cause drama just sharing what I've witnessed. I'm sure someone had them fail but I can tell you they work as intended and the label of "target", "hunting" or "tatical" is all about marketing. When used within reason and shot placed correctly all of these bullets are phenomenal killers, especially the 131 BJ and 145 BH.

I've only started to shoot the 134 eldx in my second 25-06 AI and 25 SAUM just to play. I've only taken a few animals not enough to make a solid assessment. Plus my 25 SAUM shoots 1/2" groups at blazing speeds with 110 gr Sierra GC so I'm leaving her alone for smaller animals.

Thank you for your time. Aloha!

PS. Hammers and Barnes are also exceptional bullets. I'm sure being a solid they would hold up very well and plow through anything! Good luck!
 
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I like the Juenkes' ICL wildcats too. I supposed I could give them due credit on my .338 Thor (NMI) since it has a 45-degree shoulder angle.
I have had a number of the ICL, Gibbs, and CCC cartridge chamberings over the years, as I prefer cartridges with shoulder angles 35 degrees and greater. A bug I guess I caught when I traded my great uncle out of the very first high powered rifle I ever owned when I was 14. It was a Herters U9 originally chambered in 30-06 and supposedly rechambered to .308 Norma Mag. Well it turned out to have been chambered in .308 Norma Mag Ackley Improved and had come with a set of dies. He wasn't a reloader and he knew i had practically been living in my neighbors basement learning to handload. Anyway, two of my favorite rifles are chambered in .300 ICL Grizzly and .338-.300 ICL Grizzly. The latter just being a necked up version of the former. Your Thor sounds interesting, given the fact that the first time I ever handled the .300 Norma Mag cartridge I felt it was practically begging to be improved.
 
I love the 1/4 bores! I was talked into building a 25 Creedmoor which I started shooing late last year and I must say it's my favorite and best shooting rifle I own… those 135gr Bergers certainly perform great in it to!
 
Quoted @.300 Dakota

"Blackjack, as you said, is off the table. Wasn't designed as a hunting bullet anyway. Neither are the 135 Bergers, 134 ELD-Ms, or Blackholes (unless you order them as the bonded version - Blaine told me himself he had no experience with on-game terminal performance). So out of all those you mentioned, there is 1 true hunting bullet north of 130 grains FOR MEDIUM AND LARGE GAME"
———————————————————————

Good Evening @.300 Dakota! Let me just clarify that I respect your opinion and you have every right to feel the way you do towards those bullets you mentioned. I'm not chiming in to bash or disrespect you or the way you fell about those bullets you mentioned. That being said I would share my experiences using those bullets you mentioned, I am in no way an expert and I'm learning everyday as I'm human.

First off like Bergers the Blackjack from what I understand was made for target and long range shooting. Like anything else shooters and hunters pushed the limits and to everyone's surprise they are extremely deadly when used correctly. My personal experiences with the 131 BJ's was in my 25-06 ai and 257 wby mag. Ive killed monster bulls, feral cattle, hogs, sheep, goats and axis deer. Most of them one shot kills except when I mess up a shot, they expanded and penetrated deep through cow shoulders to thin and lanky 80 lb goats. The only problem I ever had was they was discontinued and I like a lot of others got ripped off.

So I went with the next best thing the Berger 133 elite and 135 LRHT again in my 25-06 AI and 257 wby mag. Both shown exceptional performance almost identical to the 131 BJ's with surprisingly the 135 LRHT being a little better in accuracy and having a better wound channel. I've shot feral cattle out to 500 yds with these bullets as well as up close under 50 yds and they blew right through bone leaving a golf ball to tennis ball openings.

Out of this whole bunch I'm in love with the 145 blackhole bullets! So much so I made a reamer for a 25-7 PRC to get the speed and make full use of the higher BC and better ballistics. I've made head shots in feral cattle, front shoulder shots, paddle bone shots, quartering shots and even bad stomach shots. The blackhole done its job each and every time. I never had one dissolve and they always expanded and travel deep or just pass right thru. I'm curious as to how they will do with the extra speed my 25-7PRC will put out. Maybe then I will need a bonded version but at 257 wby @ 3200 fps I don't need to have one yet.

These are my experiences and I'm open to hear about any real world experiences you have as well. I have lots of pics documenting my claims but I'm not here to brag or cause drama just sharing what I've witnessed. I'm sure someone had them fail but I can tell you they work as intended and the label of "target", "hunting" or "tatical" is all about marketing. When used within reason and shot placed correctly all of these bullets are phenomenal killers, especially the 131 BJ and 145 BH.

I've only started to shoot the 134 eldx in my second 25-06 AI and 25 SAUM just to play. I've only taken a few animals not enough to make a solid assessment. Plus my 25 SAUM shoots 1/2" groups at blazing speeds with 110 gr Sierra GC so I'm leaving her alone for smaller animals.

Thank you for your time. Aloha!

PS. Hammers and Barnes are also exceptional bullets. I'm sure being a solid they would hold up very well and plow through anything! Good luck!
I suppose I'll have to find out for myself!! Hope it works the same for me!
 

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