Maybe whoever chambered your barrel and set the head space had some tolerance issues?
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Message from President of Federal
- Thread starter Randy Tidwell
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VLD Pilot
Well-Known Member
I think that's part of customer service. It's kind of the manufacturers duty to inform their customers for the reasons ammunition is obsolete. IMO anyway.
JakeC
Well-Known Member
No, I was able to measure that they were too long. It's a tightish chamber for a factory gun but the ammo was out of spec. The gun has other problems but that ain't one. Now that I know better I shouldn't have fired it. The cases were sized wrong and the necks were past max length, which meant my rifle was essentially resizing the body and giving it a light crimp. I've also had shotgun ammo that patterned very poorly. As in a figure 8 pattern at 30 yards that would miss a grouse if you happened to shoot it perfectly accurately. And there are many records of their hunting ammo being anemic. I love their primers and their rimfire ammo and I really want to try the Terminal Ascent components, and I know some people get great results with their stuff. But I've had more problems with them than any other company and I won't mind if they update some stuff is all I was saying.
59FLH
Well-Known Member
Randy, no offence taken, I get it that this is just another internet forum. I have no doubt you and I in person could discuss issues passionately and still walk away friends. I miss societies ability to agree to disagree.
1st. I am not personally waiting on anything.
2nd. I think new markets are great assuming you can supply the product and don't neglect your current markets. My guess is the market for the 130 new items is waiting for supply also.
3rd. IMO if your not supplying your falling behind.
4th. As for Redfield, I think management dropped the ball and did not prepare for the change in the market. It can be classified as complacent, I'm on board with that, but they did not react to the change.
Back to Federal, I'd be surprised if 9mm & 5.56 ammo are not Vistas #1 & #2 ballistic products, regardless of the primers we don't have those meat and potatoes items available either. This is not Federal's first rodeo, they have had as much time to prepare for this as we have. So what has Federal doing all this time? Business as usual in unusual times? If Federal wants to be the industry leader, well then lead. Running from behind making excuses IMO is hardly leadership. They have their finger on the pulse of this market better than anyone, for them to be caught with their pants down in inexcusable.
Put the make-up and camera down, roll up your sleeves, and go make some ammo. (or primers, whatever)
The bottom line is Federal as well as others were either unprepared for the market situation, or, their not being honest. Some of us amateur's saw it coming, and prepared, why not Federal? The blame for being unprepared lays solely at the feet of Federals management.
1st. I am not personally waiting on anything.
2nd. I think new markets are great assuming you can supply the product and don't neglect your current markets. My guess is the market for the 130 new items is waiting for supply also.
3rd. IMO if your not supplying your falling behind.
4th. As for Redfield, I think management dropped the ball and did not prepare for the change in the market. It can be classified as complacent, I'm on board with that, but they did not react to the change.
Back to Federal, I'd be surprised if 9mm & 5.56 ammo are not Vistas #1 & #2 ballistic products, regardless of the primers we don't have those meat and potatoes items available either. This is not Federal's first rodeo, they have had as much time to prepare for this as we have. So what has Federal doing all this time? Business as usual in unusual times? If Federal wants to be the industry leader, well then lead. Running from behind making excuses IMO is hardly leadership. They have their finger on the pulse of this market better than anyone, for them to be caught with their pants down in inexcusable.
Put the make-up and camera down, roll up your sleeves, and go make some ammo. (or primers, whatever)
The bottom line is Federal as well as others were either unprepared for the market situation, or, their not being honest. Some of us amateur's saw it coming, and prepared, why not Federal? The blame for being unprepared lays solely at the feet of Federals management.
The reason the meat and potatoes items are unavailable is because demand has outpaced manufacturing capabilities, not because of poor planning. It's not as if they can just call up a vendor and have new manufacturing equipment dropped off at the end of the week. Even when they have the equipment, they need to have qualified people to operate it and the appropriate stock to make the components. The whole Covid thing has impacted pretty much every industry in some way just by disrupting supply chains. If they can't get raw stock to make the primers, what can they do? What about when they need to modify workspaces to comply with new workplace requirements? Agree with them or not, companies have to comply with the new regulations.
Now consider the fact that demand has been high for the last few years. Where do you think all that product that you, and everyone else who planned ahead, purchased has been coming from? There have been component shortages for years and it wasn't caused by a lack of product, it's been caused by a spike in demand. Some of the spike is caused by folks rebuilding their stockpile after the last shortage, some of it is just increased numbers of new shooters, and some of it is from folks hoarding products and buying more than they need.
there are two types of people when it comes to these conversations. One is the group that think corporate profit and share holder are all that matters and they have there excuses and reasons why. Second think that the customers are who should be the most important and be treated that way. we know which side vista outdoors is on and it aint their customers first.
this has been happening for so long that if they cant prepare and be able to ramp up production then maybe they need better planning and leadership. they know every time within a year of an election when gun control and buybacks become part of the campain this happens and depending on who wins will determine how long it will last.
personally I am getting tired of there **** pore planning becoming my problem. if you cant lead get out of the way
this has been happening for so long that if they cant prepare and be able to ramp up production then maybe they need better planning and leadership. they know every time within a year of an election when gun control and buybacks become part of the campain this happens and depending on who wins will determine how long it will last.
personally I am getting tired of there **** pore planning becoming my problem. if you cant lead get out of the way
Unless you've tried to run a manufacturing/production business, of any size, it's hard to understand the struggles that these companies are experiencing. Sometimes the greatest struggle a business will have is trying to contain unexpected growth. The solution is much more complicated than simply "make more product".
yes I have 20 yrs running body and paint departments for car dealers. people need to be crossed trained in multiple departments to keep up with demand and if that alos means working 14 hr days and extra on weekends to keep customers happy that is what it takes
the parts driver has to be able to detail cars, the detailer has to help painter when needed, painter has to be able to fix dents, the dent guy has to be able to work the frame equipment and the boss has to sweep floors and run parts. that is how to be efficient and keep customers happy.
59FLH
Well-Known Member
1. This was not unexpected.
2. If I was a CEO with a billion dollars of sales in jeopardy instead of spending my time in front of a camera making excuses I would be, on the phone, in the car, or in the factory making it happen.
I have spent my life in manufacturing, I don't know everything but I know enough to know delivery counts.
If Federal fails to deliver someone else will.
2. If I was a CEO with a billion dollars of sales in jeopardy instead of spending my time in front of a camera making excuses I would be, on the phone, in the car, or in the factory making it happen.
I have spent my life in manufacturing, I don't know everything but I know enough to know delivery counts.
If Federal fails to deliver someone else will.
Having the global supply chain completely shut down certainly counts as unexpected. Having to completely reconfigure how, when, and where your employees can do their jobs is pretty unexpected.
It's unrealistic to think that you can cross-train every employee in an industrial setting, with hundreds of skilled employees, to safely and efficiently operate industrial equipment. I don't know if any of those are union jobs, but I'd bet the unions would go nuts if you tried to put a non-union worker in to replace a union worker for any amount of time. Now ask yourself how do you compensate those people who're performing a job well above their normal pay grade? A skilled machine operator will be getting paid a lot more than a packer will. Do you think a packer is going to step into an operator's job and not expect to get paid the higher rate? Do you think the company can absorb the cost of running a crew double shifts, paying overtime wages, and continue to sell products for the same cost?
What happens when production is ramped up, machines run under a higher load, and employees get burnt out from extended shifts? The quality will suffer, employee safety will suffer, and employee turnover will go through the roof! So now you're understaffed, because you've increased time loss accidents and your operating costs are going up because your worker's comp insurance rates go up. Now morale drops (taking production with it), your customers are unhappy with the quality of the product they're getting, the company is under increased pressure and scrutiny from state agencies (because of the inevitable OSHA complaints which follow unhappy employees and increasing workplace injuries), and your machines start breaking down because they're operating under heavier production loads.
It's just not as simple as making everyone work a couple extra hours.
It's unrealistic to think that you can cross-train every employee in an industrial setting, with hundreds of skilled employees, to safely and efficiently operate industrial equipment. I don't know if any of those are union jobs, but I'd bet the unions would go nuts if you tried to put a non-union worker in to replace a union worker for any amount of time. Now ask yourself how do you compensate those people who're performing a job well above their normal pay grade? A skilled machine operator will be getting paid a lot more than a packer will. Do you think a packer is going to step into an operator's job and not expect to get paid the higher rate? Do you think the company can absorb the cost of running a crew double shifts, paying overtime wages, and continue to sell products for the same cost?
What happens when production is ramped up, machines run under a higher load, and employees get burnt out from extended shifts? The quality will suffer, employee safety will suffer, and employee turnover will go through the roof! So now you're understaffed, because you've increased time loss accidents and your operating costs are going up because your worker's comp insurance rates go up. Now morale drops (taking production with it), your customers are unhappy with the quality of the product they're getting, the company is under increased pressure and scrutiny from state agencies (because of the inevitable OSHA complaints which follow unhappy employees and increasing workplace injuries), and your machines start breaking down because they're operating under heavier production loads.
It's just not as simple as making everyone work a couple extra hours.
JakeC
Well-Known Member
1. Factories cannot be run that way. 2. a hundred years ago people were dying fighting for the right to work less than 14 hours a day. Having worked a LOT of 14 hour or longer days I can tell you I do not want to drive a car or fire a gun if a worker involved was on hour 6 or after.
I work at a small custom parts manufacturer and I can tell you that if my boss caught me cross training with the welders, or caught the welders helping me with an install for a few hours he'd be pretty ugly. A few minutes here and there when you're just stepping up with a hand and stopgapping, yeah, but you can't run millions of high-tolerance explosives a day on stopgaps and bleary workers and machines that haven't been allowed to cool off and get inspected. Some bosses do think panic and performance-art hustling actually makes things go faster but that's incorrect. If you're doing it on a constant basis then you've really screwed up somewhere and you're losing any high-talent workers you have. I do not want to be gunning the first bird over a well-bred puppy or teaching my lady to shoot with ammo made under that kind of boss.
it aint like they didn't see it coming I remember it happening after 9-11 then again when Obama got elected both times and again before Trump got elected and then slowed when he did then again during the primeries in in late 19 and 20 and made worse by the political climate.
so this aint new so stop using the same old excuses I have heard for 15-20 yrs. its time to pull up their big boy pants and just get it done
so this aint new so stop using the same old excuses I have heard for 15-20 yrs. its time to pull up their big boy pants and just get it done
JakeC
Well-Known Member
You remember the first covid case hit the US only a year ago right? How could they have pumped out a couple years extra supply in six months?
If you want them to pull up their big boy pants and get it done then we'll be dropping our big girl pants on the carpet and paying double or triple what we are now. I'd rather wait then have a factory 30-06 round cost the same as a trip to jimmy johns. That would be the free market doing what we've feared the gubmint doing for years.
yes covid is only a year old but 9-11 was how long ago. just another shortage with the same excuses
how many times you going to smash your thumb hammering nails before you learn to move it?
how many shortages do we have to deal with before they make changes?
keep doing the same thing expecting different results is the definition of insanity
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