Long range HUNTING cartridges limitations

[Litehiker]

There are long range cartridges and there are long range hunting cartridges.

I currently own hunting rifles in two long range cartridges. And one LR competition rifle (6.5 CM Ruger Precision Rifle)

1. Browning A-Bolt in .300 Win mag

2.Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor

These hunting cartridges have almost identical ballistics BUT the .300 Win mag is obviously carrying more energy, especially at longer ranges.
Yes, a 140 gr. 6.5 CM has more energy than a 165 gr. .308 Win beyond 300 yards BUT it runs out of deer-killing energy much beyond 700 yards. (And the .308 Win ain't exactly a long range cartridge given its ballistics.) So the 6.5 CM is a "medium long range" hunting bullet. It's great for paper punching and steel rapping to 1,000 yards but lacks big game killing power at extreme distances.

So the point of this post is to say that, for me at least, while some long range cartridges like the 6.5 CM are great for smaller game like coyotes, and perhaps antelope to true long ranges, they are, at best, good for deer out to 700 yards for a clean kill. As Robert Rurark famously said, "Use enough gun".

Eric B.

 

[Bowfishn]

Also use the right load for your cartridge.
If I use my 165 gr Nosler BT bullets with my load of H205 powder in my 30-06 @ muzzle vel of 3100 fps (vel confirmed with MagnetoSpeed) out of a 24" barrel it is 2176 fps and 1739 ft lbs at 500 yards, 1448 fps and 770 ft lbs at 1000 yards.
If I switch to a 212 ELD-X according to QL using RL26 the same powder I use in my 6.5 Creedmoor that has always been spot on for projected loads with my lot of powder. It shows an obtainable vel at 58,093 psi of 2700 fps out of the 24" Barrel it will give me 2059 fps and 1995 ft lbs at 500 yards, 1508 fps and 1070 ft lbs at 1000 yards.
That compares to my 6.5 Creedmoor using my tested load of 143 ELD-X bullets and RL26 @ 2998 fps out of my 26" barrel giving me 2271 fps and 1637 ft lbs at 500 yards, 1655 fps and 870 ft lbs at 1000 yards.
At 500 the Creedmoor is close to the 165 gr 30-06 load but out does it at 1000, but not so with the 212 gr bullet out of the 06.
1000 yard 6.5 Creed 143 ELD-X, up moa 24" and R/L 5.8" moa drift 10 mph
1000 Yard 30-06 212 ELD-X, up moa 28" and R/L 6.3" moa drift 10 mph
And of coarse the 300 Win Mag will do it a bit further.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I think you might be drinking the wrong kool-aid thinking that "the .308 Win aint exactly a long range cartridge given ballistics"...

Modern rifles and components have proven that narrative wrong, and beyond a certain yardage, despite the slower speed off the line, with the right bullet and powder, the .308 Win will catch and surpass the 6.5 Creed in both velocity and KE. But, you are correct that up until a certain yardage, the 6.5 Creed is flatter and faster...But it will get overrun by a .308 Win shooting a 210 or 215 Berger at ~2,500 fps MV, at a certain yardage.

 

[Litehiker]

Mudrunner,
True a higher weight & BC bullet from a .308 helps with holding supersonic velocity longer.
But, like shooting a 230 gr. Berger Hybrid from my .300 Win mag Browning A-Bolt, the trajectory is very arced and requires, especially with a .308 shooting 215 grains, a LOT of vertical adjustment both in turret and reticle AND base.

You are the first person I've heard of using a 215 gr. bullet in a .308. You must have to compress the hell out of your powder with that long bullet to get the COAL to fit in a magazine.

Eric B.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Mudrunner,
True a higher weight & BC bullet from a .308 helps with holding supersonic velocity longer.
But, like shooting a 230 gr. Berger Hybrid from my .300 Win mag Browning A-Bolt, the trajectory is very arced and requires, especially with a .308 shooting 215 grains, a LOT of vertical adjustment both in turret and reticle AND base.

You are the first person I've heard of using a 215 gr. bullet in a .308. You must have to compress the hell out of your powder with that long bullet to get the COAL to fit in a magazine.

Eric B.

I have been shooting them for over 5 years. And no, I don't compress the powder...I shoot .015" off the lands and load as a single-shot.

A couple years ago Bryan Litz (Berger Bullets) won his first ever 1K yard competition with a custom .308 Win with Berger 215 Hybrids.

The trajectory on them actually isn't as bad as you would think... From a 100 yard zero, I'm only dropping 355.3 inches at 1,000 yards, or 33.9 MOA, or 9.9 MILs.

Now, we compare them with some quick calculations on a drop chart using the new Berger 140 Elite Hunter which has a .310 G7 BC, and we'll say 2,700 fps MV (highest speed given at max charge in the Berger manual) and from a 100 yard zero, you drop 325.1" at 1000, or 31.0 MOA, or 9.0 MILs

However, the .308 Win with the 215 Hybrid still holds 1464 FPS and 1023 ft.lbs. of energy, while the 6.5 Creed with the 140 Elite only holds 1452 FPS and 655 ft.lbs. of energy at 1000 yards.

So, other than the extra 30 inches of drop for the .308 Win, the Creed still loses by 12 FPS and 368 ft.lbs. of energy at 1000 yards, from a 100 yard zero.

 

[HARPERC]

[QUOTE="MudRunner2005, post: 1337295, member: 12995"

Modern rifles and components have proven that narrative wrong,[/QUOTE]
I was slow to believe this, but it's true.

 

[WildRose]

It doesn't take much gun to kill a deer cleanly even at 1000yds. The 6.5's will certainly provide ample energy to kill a deer at any range 99% of hunters can reliably shoot.

The 7mm's like the 7mm RM and 7mm STW give you more energy and more velocity which gives you a bigger margin of error and the big .30's that much more.

I've shot some of the toughest game in the world with the venerable .300wm and literally truck loads of deer and big hogs with everything from a .204 Ruger to the .375 Ruger and 45-70 gov and I'm pefrectly convinced that for the deer sized game as long as you can put a bullet into the vitals the 6.5's are more than adequate.

If you were only going to have one caliber to hunt everything in N. America with a fair margin of error the 7mm RM, 7mm STW and 300wm are each quite capable.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

I love the good old time tested 7 mm rm, but you can't beat .308 cal holes in chest cavities ! Unless you put your time in and lots of it on the range I don't think ANYONE should be shooting at game at any distance let alone past 500 yards ! A gutshot at 800 yards is very different from a chest hit, we owe a little to the game we harvest, so get off the couch/computer and get to the shooting bench !

 

[AZShooter]

Lighthiker:

I also shoot the 215 Berger in a 308 Win@ 2515 fps. Remarkable performance. A guy named Montana Marine has been shooting heavy bullets in his 308 Win for well over a decade. We use RL-17.

I would suggest you can get a jump in performance with your 300 win mag if you switch to 215 Bergers and H1000. Near or far for deer, antelope and elk. IMO this bullet may be THE bullet for the 300 win mag.

Read Broz's thread to see just how effective it is on big game.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/comparing-the-berger-210-vld-to-the-215-hybrid.88657/page-6

 

[Shane Lindsey]

I too shoot the 215 in a 308 Win. H4350 gets me up to 2479 fps with good es/sd. Not as fast as the RE-17 but doesn't shift with temps.

 

[Bowfishn]

OK, for the sake of being fair to the 6.5 Creedmoor let's talk apples to apples.
Now I love the 30 cal rifles, the 30-06 has always been my favorite, it was my first Deer Rifle I hunted with 48 years ago when I was 12 , Model 1903 sporterized Springfield with Williams Peeps, 22" barrel. I still have 2 Sako L61R 30-06 Rifles I hunt with.
You are comparing a Target bullet to a hunting bullet and by the way Berger shows 2830 as highest speed for their 140 Elite Hunter.
( http://www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/6.5-Creedmoor.pdf )
So I will give you results with a 6.5 Creed target bullet from my 26" X-Caliber Barrel using RL26 Powder. Velocity recorded with MagnetoSpeed average of 10 bullets at 60 degrees.
My 6.5 Creedmoor using 147 ELD-M going 2930 fps at 1000 Yards using G7 BC is still doing 1725 fps 972 ft lbs. drop of 235.8" requiring an adjustment of 22.5" to be on target with a 100 zero at Sea Level 59 degrees Farn.
It doesn't go subsonic until after 1660 yards, and with only 65.6" on the turret will reach a mile with 1058 fps and 365 ft lbs.
Still not a 1000 yard Hunting Cartridge in my opinion.

 

[Bravo 4]

I like this thread, lots of good points. I agree that a good target round doesn't make for a good big game hunting round. Just because you can hit it doesn't mean you should.
Whenever someone talks to me about a long range cartridge (especially for hunting) I throw this up in the air; the bullet does all the work, the cartridge is the engine to get it going and the rifle is just the launch pad. It needs to be a complete system, one good component doesn't make for a good long range platform.
As an example: I don't know anyone that wouldn't agree that a 7mm RemMag has far more long range potential than a .308 Winchester. They will look at you like you're an idiot if you tell them that a properly loaded .308 will out perform a 7mag that isn't loaded "right". This is with ranges as close as 400 yards, then that properly loaded .308 will start to dominate that poorly loaded 7mag. When you actually show them (with the aid of a ballistic app) they will see what I mean by a system.
That is just one aspect of it because BC doesn't kill, it helps get it there and deliver it's potential. Then you can talk about killing potential of the bullet as far as terminal performance (it's construction, minimum velocity to deform, penetration capability, etc).
I can talk about this for days...I love this stuff.

Bowfishn- cool name, I took my wife and daughter last night for a few hours.

 

[MudRunner2005]

OK, for the sake of being fair to the 6.5 Creedmoor let's talk apples to apples.
Now I love the 30 cal rifles, the 30-06 has always been my favorite, it was my first Deer Rifle I hunted with 48 years ago when I was 12 , Model 1903 sporterized Springfield with Williams Peeps, 22" barrel. I still have 2 Sako L61R 30-06 Rifles I hunt with.
You are comparing a Target bullet to a hunting bullet and by the way Berger shows 2830 as highest speed for their 140 Elite Hunter.
( http://www.bergerbullets.com/pdf/6.5-Creedmoor.pdf )
So I will give you results with a 6.5 Creed target bullet from my 26" X-Caliber Barrel using RL26 Powder. Velocity recorded with MagnetoSpeed average of 10 bullets at 60 degrees.
My 6.5 Creedmoor using 147 ELD-M going 2930 fps at 1000 Yards using G7 BC is still doing 1725 fps 972 ft lbs. drop of 235.8" requiring an adjustment of 22.5" to be on target with a 100 zero at Sea Level 59 degrees Farn.
It doesn't go subsonic until after 1660 yards, and with only 65.6" on the turret will reach a mile with 1058 fps and 365 ft lbs.
Still not a 1000 yard Hunting Cartridge in my opinion.

Actually, they're both Hybrids, and I didn't use their online manual, I used my hard-copy of the Berger 1st Edition manual and specs for the 140 VLD. Max there is 2,700 fps. I never said I used data for the Elite Hunter, I just said I used data from the Berger manual.

I just don't really know about you getting almost 3K fps MV with a 140gr bullet in a 6.5 Creedmoor... That's nearly .260 AI territory, and the .260 AI holds a bit more powder than the Creed. And you're claiming to be shooting nearly 300 fps faster than book max tested with a 24" barrel, when you only gain about 25-50 fps per inch of barrel... Just saying, you might want to check your numbers...They sound inflated.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

Actually, they're both Hybrids, and I didn't use their online manual, I used my hard-copy of the Berger 1st Edition manual and specs for the 140 VLD. Max there is 2,700 fps. I never said I used data for the Elite Hunter, I just said I used data from the Berger manual.

I just don't really know about you getting almost 3K fps MV with a 140gr bullet in a 6.5 Creedmoor... That's nearly .260 AI territory, and the .260 AI holds a bit more powder than the Creed. And you're claiming to be shooting nearly 300 fps faster than book max tested with a 24" barrel, when you only gain about 25-50 fps per inch of barrel... Just saying, you might want to check your numbers...They sound inflated.

Mud, He's correct. I tried it for myself and achieved 3014 fps with the 140 eld-m. I backed off to 48 grains and am running 2945 with fantastic results. These are out of my 26 in criterion. I run 2880 with 42 grains of rl-17 which regularly shoots 3 shot groups in the .1s and 5 shots no the .2s. Don't knock it til you try it.