Lehigh Defense subsonic bullets for long range terminal performance

[atl5029]

Hi everyone.

New to the forums here. I have been an avid hunter and shooter since I was 13, but I have recently become obsessed with long range shooting and hunting after watching the Magpul Art of Precision Rifle dvds (if you haven't seen them, you should. The amount of knowledge in those dvds is astronomical). I have been doing a ton of research on the subject of long range shooting, rifles, and ballistics recently, so I think I am fairly up to speed on the basics of long range shooting.

I usually stay away from joining firearms forums because I find it is mostly full of subjective opinion instead of good objective information, but I have been reading this forum a lot lately and most people here seem pretty savvy in the technical stuff - and I guess you need to be in this type of shooting. So I'm happy to be a part of this forum.

Anyway here is my dilemma: I am building my first long range rifle, and I have a somewhat limited budget so I am not going to build it in any crazy huge caliber. It is going to be a standard caliber: either 300 Win Mag, 308, or maybe 30-06 or 300 WSM. I think I have building the rifle down though. My question is on bullets. Obviously you want to use a high BC bullet that will also give you good terminal performance at extended ranges. For all my hunting rifles I shoot various Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets. I just like shooting non lead bullets for a number of reasons, so lets not debate the virtues of bullets like the Berger VLD or SMK vs the Barnes. However I find that at the extended ranges and lower velocities, the Barnes bullets might not give good expansion.

What I have found as a possible solution are the bullets from Lehigh Defense designed for sub sonic loads in the 300 Blackout. They would give full expansion and good penetration at really low velocities. They also claim some crazy high G1 BC values that would allow them to carry energy way out there.

Has anyone tried to use these bullets for long range shooting? If so how did they perform?

For their 174 grain controlled fracturing bullet, they claim a G1 BC of .586, and for their 194 grain maximum expansion bullet, they claim a G1 BC of .683. Those seem crazy high for the shape of the bullets. They are way higher than a similar weight SMK or Barnes LRX. I was skeptical and emailed them about it. They said their BC is calculated, but they verify it with dual chronographs at 10 and 100 yards. Has anyone ever tried to confirm the BC on these bullets? Are they really that high? If so, that is amazing.

Thanks everyone. Cant wait for your replies

 

[Michael Courtney]

Hi everyone.

New to the forums here. I have been an avid hunter and shooter since I was 13, but I have recently become obsessed with long range shooting and hunting after watching the Magpul Art of Precision Rifle dvds (if you haven't seen them, you should. The amount of knowledge in those dvds is astronomical). I have been doing a ton of research on the subject of long range shooting, rifles, and ballistics recently, so I think I am fairly up to speed on the basics of long range shooting.

I usually stay away from joining firearms forums because I find it is mostly full of subjective opinion instead of good objective information, but I have been reading this forum a lot lately and most people here seem pretty savvy in the technical stuff - and I guess you need to be in this type of shooting. So I'm happy to be a part of this forum.

Anyway here is my dilemma: I am building my first long range rifle, and I have a somewhat limited budget so I am not going to build it in any crazy huge caliber. It is going to be a standard caliber: either 300 Win Mag, 308, or maybe 30-06 or 300 WSM. I think I have building the rifle down though. My question is on bullets. Obviously you want to use a high BC bullet that will also give you good terminal performance at extended ranges. For all my hunting rifles I shoot various Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets. I just like shooting non lead bullets for a number of reasons, so lets not debate the virtues of bullets like the Berger VLD or SMK vs the Barnes. However I find that at the extended ranges and lower velocities, the Barnes bullets might not give good expansion.

What I have found as a possible solution are the bullets from Lehigh Defense designed for sub sonic loads in the 300 Blackout. They would give full expansion and good penetration at really low velocities. They also claim some crazy high G1 BC values that would allow them to carry energy way out there.

Has anyone tried to use these bullets for long range shooting? If so how did they perform?

For their 174 grain controlled fracturing bullet, they claim a G1 BC of .586, and for their 194 grain maximum expansion bullet, they claim a G1 BC of .683. Those seem crazy high for the shape of the bullets. They are way higher than a similar weight SMK or Barnes LRX. I was skeptical and emailed them about it. They said their BC is calculated, but they verify it with dual chronographs at 10 and 100 yards. Has anyone ever tried to confirm the BC on these bullets? Are they really that high? If so, that is amazing.

Thanks everyone. Cant wait for your replies

I expect that since their bullets are intended for subsonic use, the BCs are verified at subsonic velocities. I doubt the BCs are that high at 2800 ish fps.

We've tested the bullets in gelatin at subsonic velocities. They do expand reliably as claimed.

 

[IdahoRedneck]

Well keep in mind if your building a hunting rifle 95% of your shots will take place well inside 1000 yards. Keep that in mind when choosing a caliber and bullet with subsonic terminal performance in mind.

Jmho, but you cannot go wrong with a 300 win mag and Berger 215 hybrids.............Hey if its worth doing its worth doing rightgun)

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Jmho, but you cannot go wrong with a 300 win mag and Berger 215 hybrids.............Hey if its worth doing its worth doing rightgun)

+1! That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the op. Hard to go wrong with a .696 bc. Full speed ahead brotha. Good luck. You know my vote has already been cast!

 

[dkhunt14]

First off I would build a 300 WSM. The reason is good brass that lasts forever, just about as much velocity depending on bullet and powder, and easier to tune. Every 1000 yard heavy bench gun in 300 WIN and 308 Baer that was cut off and rechambered in 300 WSM shot way better then before. When I shot the 308 Baer the throat moved About .025 each year. The Baer is about the same capacity as the WIN Mag. The WSM doesn't move More then .002 to .003 a year with the same amount of shots. That is a lot less barrel wear in the throat. I know I will get posts disputing this but they are all facts. The other 30 cal magnums have disappeared on the 1000 yard line. I shoot at Williamsport and am talking about 100 light guns and 70 heavy guns per match. So it is a big sampling. Almost every record in 100 yard BR is held by a 6 Dasher or 300 WSM. Maybe Bountyhunter will step in and verify this. Matt

 

[BountyHunter]

Danny Brooks broke records and we shooter of the year with a WSM that had over 4000 rds through it.

With MRP we were running 2950 to 3025 with 210s.

 

[gohring3006]

Danny Brooks broke records and we shooter of the year with a WSM that had over 4000 rds through it.

With MRP we were running 2950 to 3025 with 210s.

Would a 24in barrel be OK for the wsm if so would a accurate 30-06 able to be recut for the wsm

 

[BountyHunter]

A 24" would work and I doubt a 30'06 would.

you would need a new bolt and rail work to make it work. Sell the 30'06 and buy a Winchester Coyote in WSM. More than accurate to 1000. Top choice when we ran a factory class match.

 

[gohring3006]

A 24" would work and I doubt a 30'06 would.

you would need a new bolt and rail work to make it work. Sell the 30'06 and buy a Winchester Coyote in WSM. More than accurate to 1000. Top choice when we ran a factory class match.

duh. I don't know what I was thinking. Some times I get caught up and don't consider obvious differences. Bolt face diameter, rail and mag. Etc.

 

[snowpro440]

Yep, +1 dkhunt14 I agree for long range work the 300WSM is the way to go for accuracy.

 

[gohring3006]

I hear a lot about much better barrel life in comparison to the Win. mag.

 

[atl5029]

Thanks everyone for your input, but I've scrapped this idea as I have learned more about long range shooting and hunting, and I've decided to go in a different direction with my build.

The engineers at Lehigh Defense actually told me that at the high velocity I would be firing them at, they would likely come apart in the air. I have turned now to Cutting Edge (also in PA) for my high BC monolithic bullets. Their MTH line seems to be just what I was looking for.

 

[idaho elk hunter]

+1! That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the op. Hard to go wrong with a .696 bc. Full speed ahead brotha. Good luck. You know my vote has already been cast!

I thought, I may be wrong, He said HE DOES NOT want to hear about the Berger! Why can we not respect his question? He want to know about the Lehigh. He makes that very clear!

Michael Courtney is spot on with his answer.