Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
try tooling balls sometime. Minimal area contact and max runout with them is about .0005" or less. If you get the ones with a shoulder on them they are extremely close.
gary
lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who's dies are best?
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try tooling balls sometime. Minimal area contact and max runout with them is about .0005" or less. If you get the ones with a shoulder on them they are extremely close.
gary
Bullet bumper
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That is an interesting idea and if it does what you need then it's a good idea.
It's a very complicated issue and as we are measuring loaded rounds they have been through sizing and seating dies that make changes to the brass.
What I do at the moment is use a V block to support the case in the middle away from the shoulder and base and rotate in that . It is far from perfect but it is cheap . What I do is indicate the neck first then the bullet and compare.
If the neck runs out then whatever I read on the bullet is also partly neck run out. If the neck is fine then whatever I read on the bullet is seating run out.
I am sure it is full of holes but it gives me an idea of how my sizer and seating dies are working . If I get more neck runout after neck sizing turned cases than I had just after firing then I get a new die or look at how I am sizing , cleaning , lubing , whatever .
I dumped expander ball type neck sizers in preference for Lee collet and bushing type dies and also full length dies in preference for body die . Also bought a few comp seater dies.
After that I saw straighter necks and less bullet run out but bad brass can screw you up some times .
My case necks are skim turned to do this but on other guns I don't neck turn so I don't bother testing bullet run out . I just tune to the best accuracy I can get and leave it at that.
boomtube
Well-Known Member
I gage necks by placing my 'bullet' teflon V block at the base of the neck and put the indicator near the mouth, that way I'm ONLY checking sized neck runout. It's been eye opening to see where and find how neck tilt comes into the picture. I love my Lee collet neck dies and my 'home made' body dies, got rid of my few bushing type sizers.
All of my 'accuracy' cases get skim turned about 80% of the circumference before use. Any that have excessive runout after firing and sizing gets tossed with no effort to salvage bad cases.
All of my 'accuracy' cases get skim turned about 80% of the circumference before use. Any that have excessive runout after firing and sizing gets tossed with no effort to salvage bad cases.
Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?
Wow ! All your dies are hornady. Well , I have and use all the major dies and IMO the hornady dies and the worst made by far. I just threw two sets in the garbage last month as I couldn't sell them in good concience. As for lee , they make the best of the less expensive brands. I fi.d the forster seater and a lee collet to be the best combo IMO. If you want to see a real *** piece of equipment look at the camlok trimmer from hornady. The design is flawed from the begining and the machining is third rate. Steel shaft through cast iron with mill marks all over the machined bearing surfaces. At first terribly rough and then just sloppy. I know because I boight one. It is the last tool I will ever buy from hornady. bought a wilson trimmer two months ago and after using it IMO it is the best !
Wow ! All your dies are hornady. Well , I have and use all the major dies and IMO the hornady dies and the worst made by far. I just threw two sets in the garbage last month as I couldn't sell them in good concience. As for lee , they make the best of the less expensive brands. I fi.d the forster seater and a lee collet to be the best combo IMO. If you want to see a real *** piece of equipment look at the camlok trimmer from hornady. The design is flawed from the begining and the machining is third rate. Steel shaft through cast iron with mill marks all over the machined bearing surfaces. At first terribly rough and then just sloppy. I know because I boight one. It is the last tool I will ever buy from hornady. bought a wilson trimmer two months ago and after using it IMO it is the best !
Bullet bumper
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We sound like we are in sinc to some degree. I have also made my own body dies the first ones way back before Redding even made one .
What I did was cut the top off a Full Length size die and drill out the neck to creat a body die. I never used the term body die as it did not exist at that time.
I called my dies a Shoulder to Base die . Now I would not bother as a new Redding body die is cheaper to buy than making one . Now I have the facilities to turn one up from scratch if I wanted .
I still have one or two of the home made ones laying about in my gear some place . They werea bit rough but they worked a treat .
How did you make your body dies ? I am very interested to see how others have done it .
Bullet bumper
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Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?
They make them intentionaly sloppy so the cutter pilot follows the case neck not the shaft bearing so much . That way they don't have to be as precisely made and still cut square to the neck axis but I agree the one I saw at the range was not well made either .
Wilson is more precisely made .
Hornady new dimention dies are not as bad as you are saying . I have two sets converted to micrometers just for hunting rifles and they load accurate ammo with care. A lot depends on how you use them . I agree that they are not as good as most of the others for sure but still usefull dies . Would I buy any more NO , but they do the job .
They make them intentionaly sloppy so the cutter pilot follows the case neck not the shaft bearing so much . That way they don't have to be as precisely made and still cut square to the neck axis but I agree the one I saw at the range was not well made either .
Wilson is more precisely made .
Hornady new dimention dies are not as bad as you are saying . I have two sets converted to micrometers just for hunting rifles and they load accurate ammo with care. A lot depends on how you use them . I agree that they are not as good as most of the others for sure but still usefull dies . Would I buy any more NO , but they do the job .
Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?
The design flaw is that they trim to the lenght from the TOP of the rim to the case mouth so that the over all lenght varies by the thickness of the case rim. Does not cut for over all lenght at all. Rim thickness varies by several thousanth within the same lot ! Hornady camlok doesn't trim to case over all lenght at all...*** !
The design flaw is that they trim to the lenght from the TOP of the rim to the case mouth so that the over all lenght varies by the thickness of the case rim. Does not cut for over all lenght at all. Rim thickness varies by several thousanth within the same lot ! Hornady camlok doesn't trim to case over all lenght at all...*** !
Bullet bumper
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Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?
That is not good as you say . I did not know the cam lock was that poorly designed not ever owning one . Good that you pointed that out.
Even though the case length may vary a bit it is only in the neck length in reality if you seat a bullet to a certain length from the base .
If the case is nice and square on the mouth then a few thou longer or shorter in the neck will not make much difference as long as case necks are not at the end of the chamber . Most have .015 to .020 extra room compared to new case length.
However if we are trying for precision neck tension then we want the necks exactly the same length and also square.
That is not good as you say . I did not know the cam lock was that poorly designed not ever owning one . Good that you pointed that out.
Even though the case length may vary a bit it is only in the neck length in reality if you seat a bullet to a certain length from the base .
If the case is nice and square on the mouth then a few thou longer or shorter in the neck will not make much difference as long as case necks are not at the end of the chamber . Most have .015 to .020 extra room compared to new case length.
However if we are trying for precision neck tension then we want the necks exactly the same length and also square.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
well I did that about twenty years ago, and was laughed at! But it worked just fine for my needs. I tried drill out the necks with a carbide drill, but kept getting a nasty burr. Ended up honeing the bore after I cut it off to get about .008" clearence on a once fired neck. I picked the dies up used at a gun show (C&H)
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Re: lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who\'s dies are best?
My main complaint with Hornaday dies is in the sizer stem. It just keeps slipping on the three or four sets I own (the worst being a .270 WBY mag).
I trim with a Wilson these days, and probably will till I finally croak.
gary
My main complaint with Hornaday dies is in the sizer stem. It just keeps slipping on the three or four sets I own (the worst being a .270 WBY mag).
I trim with a Wilson these days, and probably will till I finally croak.
gary
Bullet bumper
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I found that the old Lyman dies were quite soft and far easier to drill than some others . The first ones I made by hand using a new high speed steel cobalt drill .
I drilled from inside the die outward so it minimised any burr at the shoulder / neck junction of the die not the case .
Tried different ways to lapp the edge of the shoulder / neck junction with varying success . Wrecked a few dies but in the end got a few that worked ok .
I like to think I invented the body die but I am fully aware that many others would have faced the same reloading problems and came up with the same solutions .
Now I have met one . A man can have his dreams can he not ?
In measuring bullet runout on loaded rounds and how well centered case necks are in chember necks on loaded rounds, the best results (best centering & bullet runout) happend for me when fired cases were full length resized in gelded dies (no balls) and shoulders set back no more than .002". Die neck were about .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameters. And fired case body diameters need not be reduced more than a couple thousandths. Even measuring bullet or neck runout on loaded rounds centered in a ring mid point on their shoulders and their pressure ring in a V block, full length sizing dies produced the best results.
Note that bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders center their shoulders on the chamber shoulder when fired. Their case necks float in space somewhere in the chamber neck; they don't touch anything. And the back end of the case is pressed against the chamber wall by the extractor so it's never perfectly centered anyway. If the case neck ain't well centered on the case shoulder, it won't be well centered in the chamber when the round fires. Period.
I've tried several neck sizing dies (Neil Jones and others) on .308 Win. and 30 caliber magnum fired cases and none centered sized case necks as well as gelded full length sizing dies did. No wonder at all to me as the case body wasn't held in place with neck only dies. As long as the sized case neck's well centered on the shoulder and well aligned with the case body axis, most any bullet seater will put bullets in the case that have minimum runout. The case mouth has to be minimally smaller than bullet diameter else the neck will get bent from bullet seating pressure. Mouth edges have to be free of sharp edges that scrape jacket material off bullets unbalancing them
Go measure case neck and bullet centering in a chamber with the bolt closed on them. You'll need to cut the barrel off just in front of the chamber's mouth to do this. Or get a worn out barrel and cut it off at that place and use just the chambered section in your action. It was enlightening for me to do this. May be enlightening for others, too.
I've fired enough 20-shot test groups to see the difference in case sizing and bullet seating tools and techniques. It's no wonder to me that a lot of benchresters have switched over to full length sizing their fired cases. Other competitors have been full length sizing their fired cases for decades and got the same or better accuracy than benchresters neck only sizing their cases.
Note that bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulders center their shoulders on the chamber shoulder when fired. Their case necks float in space somewhere in the chamber neck; they don't touch anything. And the back end of the case is pressed against the chamber wall by the extractor so it's never perfectly centered anyway. If the case neck ain't well centered on the case shoulder, it won't be well centered in the chamber when the round fires. Period.
I've tried several neck sizing dies (Neil Jones and others) on .308 Win. and 30 caliber magnum fired cases and none centered sized case necks as well as gelded full length sizing dies did. No wonder at all to me as the case body wasn't held in place with neck only dies. As long as the sized case neck's well centered on the shoulder and well aligned with the case body axis, most any bullet seater will put bullets in the case that have minimum runout. The case mouth has to be minimally smaller than bullet diameter else the neck will get bent from bullet seating pressure. Mouth edges have to be free of sharp edges that scrape jacket material off bullets unbalancing them
Go measure case neck and bullet centering in a chamber with the bolt closed on them. You'll need to cut the barrel off just in front of the chamber's mouth to do this. Or get a worn out barrel and cut it off at that place and use just the chambered section in your action. It was enlightening for me to do this. May be enlightening for others, too.
I've fired enough 20-shot test groups to see the difference in case sizing and bullet seating tools and techniques. It's no wonder to me that a lot of benchresters have switched over to full length sizing their fired cases. Other competitors have been full length sizing their fired cases for decades and got the same or better accuracy than benchresters neck only sizing their cases.
