lee collet dies/rcbs dies/foster bonanza dies/who's dies are best?

[fmajor]

I learned to reload from a fella who had reloaded for decades and reloading was a part of his gunsmithing business. He had me order the RCBS micrometer bullet seating die for .284 and i bought a second bullet sleeve for .308. With these two sleeves i was able to reload for my 7mm RM and my 300 Win.

For sizing/case prep, we usually only neck-sized (using RCBS dies), but i did have the full-length re-sizer dies when full-length sizing was necessary. However, with the full-length re-sizer die he machined the expander ball down so it wouldn't contact the brass.

With reloads from this set-up, my 300 Win, which was a blue-printed Rem 700 w/ Douglas barrel, was a consistent sub-quarter-MOA shooter. I'll not buy another Douglas barrel b/c of huge amounts of fouling, but that's another thread topic.

 

[Bart B]

For sizing/case prep, we usually only neck-sized (using RCBS dies), but i did have the full-length re-sizer dies when full-length sizing was necessary. However, with the full-length re-sizer die he machined the expander ball down so it wouldn't contact the brass.

I think the die's neck would be way to small for decent results. Without the expander ball, full length sizing dies need their necks opened up a few thousandths to 1 to 3 thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters.

I've loaded ammo with out the expander ball in full length dies and pressure was way too high for safety with bullets gripped so darned tight having been seated in case neck sized down too much.

With reloads from this set-up, my 300 Win, which was a blue-printed Rem 700 w/ Douglas barrel, was a consistent sub-quarter-MOA shooter. I'll not buy another Douglas barrel b/c of huge amounts of fouling, but that's another thread topic.

A consistent sub-quarter-MOA shooter? No group's been larger than 1/4th MOA from this shoulder fired rifle and ammo so reloaded? That's amazing. Never heard of a Douglas barrel nor neck only sized cases doing that well. Kudos to your and your stuff!!!!!

 

[Trickymissfit]

I found that the old Lyman dies were quite soft and far easier to drill than some others . The first ones I made by hand using a new high speed steel cobalt drill .
I drilled from inside the die outward so it minimised any burr at the shoulder / neck junction of the die not the case .
Tried different ways to lapp the edge of the shoulder / neck junction with varying success . Wrecked a few dies but in the end got a few that worked ok .
I like to think I invented the body die but I am fully aware that many others would have faced the same reloading problems and came up with the same solutions .
Now I have met one . A man can have his dreams can he not ?

Try it next time with a standard Hi-Roc drill bit. They're made of a softer grade of carbide, and actually drill very accurately. Just crank of the suface speed, and cool it with something like basic grinder coolant (mist works best). A boring bar with a ceramic insert ought to work well too. The hardest ones I've recut were Lee's. They look like they are made of 4350 pretreat and have a very deep nitride case (plasma?) Lee does a very good job in their heat processes, and how they can get them that hard is amazing to me!

gary

 

[Reloader222]

Does the use of Sinclair Expander Dies help to improve runout?

Look at this:

Sinclair Generation II Expander Dies | Sinclair Intl

 

[Bart B]

Does the use of Sinclair Expander Dies help to improve runout?

I'm a believer that the least amount of metal moving in sizing case necks keeps them best aligned with case shoulders and bodies. Expander dies help get a given cartridge neck larger for bigger bullets, but as far as reloading fired cases, the case body needs to be held solidly in place while its neck is swaged down just enough to let brass springback make the case mouth just tight enough on the bullet to keep it in place from seating die to chamber.

If the ammo's gonna be handled roughly, then tighter neck tension's a a requirement. Otherwise, size fired case neck down no more than needed. And do that with a die that keeps the case body from moving around as the die's neck goes its last bit down the case neck and its shoulder pushes the fired case shoulder back a thousandth or so making everything as perfect as can be. . .alignment wise.

 

[fmajor]

I think the die's neck would be way to small for decent results. Without the expander ball, full length sizing dies need their necks opened up a few thousandths to 1 to 3 thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters.

I've loaded ammo with out the expander ball in full length dies and pressure was way too high for safety with bullets gripped so darned tight having been seated in case neck sized down too much.

A consistent sub-quarter-MOA shooter? No group's been larger than 1/4th MOA from this shoulder fired rifle and ammo so reloaded? That's amazing. Never heard of a Douglas barrel nor neck only sized cases doing that well. Kudos to your and your stuff!!!!!

No rifle, anywhere, ever has a consistent, exceptionally high level of accuracy with *every* cartridge that will fit in the chamber. I meant that with the accuracy loads that were developed, it was consistently a 1/4 MOA shooter.

This was quite awhile ago so i'm forgetting some of the detail, but iirc (always a potential for error!!!), yes, the expander ball on the FL die was machined down. However, on the neck sizer i believe there was an expander.

 

[Bart B]

I meant that with the accuracy loads that were developed, it was consistently a 1/4 MOA shooter.

That's what I thought you meant.

But every rifle's set of groups typically has a 3x to 4x spread from their smallest ones to their largest ones. Even benchrest few-shot single-group records are down in their "smallest" range. In aggreate matches consisting of several groups, the largest ones are sometimes 5x larger than their smallest ones but the average of all groups is how they're ranked.

No rifle-ammo combination shoots all their groups the same size which is whay my comment was based on about your "consistant 1/4 MOA shooter." If your groups average 1/4 MOA, then that ain't consistant 1/4 MOA.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Try it next time with a standard Hi-Roc drill bit. They're made of a softer grade of carbide, and actually drill very accurately. Just crank of the suface speed, and cool it with something like basic grinder coolant (mist works best). A boring bar with a ceramic insert ought to work well too. The hardest ones I've recut were Lee's. They look like they are made of 4350 pretreat and have a very deep nitride case (plasma?) Lee does a very good job in their heat processes, and how they can get them that hard is amazing to me!

gary

I will keep that in mind but back then they did not exist and you could not buy one so I had to make what I needed , but now I would just buy one .

 

[Trickymissfit]

I will keep that in mind but back then they did not exist and you could not buy one so I had to make what I needed , but now I would just buy one .

just remember that like most all solid carbide drill bits you must keep everything pretty rigid mounted. The good thing about the Hi-Roc drills is that they are strait flute drill bits. Meaning that if you happen to break one (and I have more than a few times) they will be easier to get the remainder back out of the hole.
gary

 

[Bart B]

Years ago, when I went my employer's machine shop to open up my FL sizing die necks, the shop forman suggested I chuck the die in a lathe headstock top end out. Then run it by hand with a dial indicator arm in its neck to check for runout; shim a jaw or two in the headstock to get it centered. Then run the lathe a few hundred RPM with a wood dowel with its split end holding emery paper going in and out of the die's neck to keep the neck perfectly centered on the dowel's emery cloth. Made sense to me so that's what I did. Took about 10 minutes per die to lap, clean, measure with a hole mic, then repeat as needed.

This is how rifle barrel blanks are gundrilled and reamed to bore diameter. The barrel turns keeping the fixed boring head well centered in the path of least resistance to the drill. The fixed reamer then well centers on the turning bore to finish it.

Drilling a bit into a stationary die neck typically off centers the bit to some degree depending on hardness variables of both the die and bit. And the hole's not going to be quite as perfectly round as spinning the die on a fixed bit would do.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Years ago, when I went my employer's machine shop to open up my FL sizing die necks, the shop forman suggested I chuck the die in a lathe headstock top end out. Then run it by hand with a dial indicator arm in its neck to check for runout; shim a jaw or two in the headstock to get it centered. Then run the lathe a few hundred RPM with a wood dowel with its split end holding emery paper going in and out of the die's neck to keep the neck perfectly centered on the dowel's emery cloth. Made sense to me so that's what I did. Took about 10 minutes per die to lap, clean, measure with a hole mic, then repeat as needed.

This is how rifle barrel blanks are gundrilled and reamed to bore diameter. The barrel turns keeping the fixed boring head well centered in the path of least resistance to the drill. The fixed reamer then well centers on the turning bore to finish it.

Drilling a bit into a stationary die neck typically off centers the bit to some degree depending on hardness variables of both the die and bit. And the hole's not going to be quite as perfectly round as spinning the die on a fixed bit would do.

Never opened a die with a wooden dowl rod, but have used that process to remove metal from stuff before. With a Die and the actual short length you working with, a Sunnen hone is the way to go if you have one handy. Nice and strait with a nice suface finish when you get done. The hone simply follows the existing bore. An even easier way to do this is with a small boring bar like you use in a jig bore head. Setup a dial indicator after you first touch the suface, and make your cuts in reverse (from the inside of the die out). I like the hone process as the setup takes longer to find the right diameter hone than it does to do the job. Probably a dozen different ways to get to the same place. I did my first one on a B&S #13 grinder with the die chucked in a three jaw chuck.
gary

 

[boomtube]

"Drilling a bit into a stationary die neck typically off centers the bit to some degree depending on hardness variables of both the die and bit. And the hole's not going to be quite as perfectly round as spinning the die on a fixed bit would do"

In theory that's true, may be true in fact, but IME the difference is meaningless. There is no great value in a perfectly centered neck when boring it over size to use as a body die.

I use cheep carbide concrete drills diamond ground to my desired finished diameter to bore out the necks from the bottom of the die. I finish up with a split wood dowel and carbide paper as a lap, it easily removes and smooths any tiny shoulder burr.

I prefer to bore die necks on the lathe but I used a common drill press before I got the lathe. (Do love my old South Bend Model A 9"!)

 

[Bart B]

I think if one wants to just open up their full length sizind die's neck to a couple thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter, then turing the die in a lathe chuck is best. That'll keep the die's neck well centered on its body axis.

For making a "body" die, then drilling out the die's neck on a drill press would do just fine.

Regarding body dies, are they typically just going to size case body diameters down and not touch the shoulder at all? If so, what's wrong with just cutting off the die's top end at its shoulder?

 

[Trickymissfit]

"Drilling a bit into a stationary die neck typically off centers the bit to some degree depending on hardness variables of both the die and bit. And the hole's not going to be quite as perfectly round as spinning the die on a fixed bit would do"

In theory that's true, may be true in fact, but IME the difference is meaningless. There is no great value in a perfectly centered neck when boring it over size to use as a body die.

I use cheep carbide concrete drills diamond ground to my desired finished diameter to bore out the necks from the bottom of the die. I finish up with a split wood dowel and carbide paper as a lap, it easily removes and smooths any tiny shoulder burr.

I prefer to bore die necks on the lathe but I used a common drill press before I got the lathe. (Do love my old South Bend Model A 9"!)

* a drill going off center is often caused by miss alignment of the chuck itself as compaired to the work surface. In otherwords angled. But a typical two flute drill hanging way out there will flex enough to get you the same problem. Still if all your drill out is about ten thousandths the missalignment will be very minute at the worst. Twist drills are also prone to shifting to one side if not setup in a very tight situation. Plus its well known that a typical two flute twist drill does not cut a round hole. The flutes on a Hi-Roc drill bit are strait with a very short length. Holes are only slightly worse than a good quality reamer. They can be had in metric, letter, number, and fractional drill sizes.

* now if you decide to make a body die out of a standard Lee die, and use the wooden dowl rod trick; you'll be in for some serious time. Their dies seem to be harder and have a deeper case than the rest of the others. But it will work over time. The way to do it is to back bore the neck of the die and then lap it with a series of emery and black paper followed by a tight Scotchbrite pad (oil soaked)

* of course you could simply cut the head of the die off to where the neck part is maybe .10" long max. This would be much easier to cut; no matter what method. That's pretty much what I did, plus I cut about .04" off the big end as well.
gary