Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[J E Custom]

So I have heard this said multiple times on multiple threads. Do larger diameter bullets really allow more room for error?

I am genuinely curious what everybody's opinion is. Lets talk elk and deer calibers, no need to bring up the 50 BMG.

For example, do you guys believe bullets in 308 expands the kill zone in a game animal vs a 264 or 284?

I am not sure I buy into it...what are your thoughts?

*I edited this to take out specific cartridges and focus on bullet diameter. Trying to avoid cartridge bias

Error is the downfall of all projectiles.
A larger bullet should not be depended on to help the shooter to make better shots. The only real advantage to larger bullets is that the proper choice of bullet for the game will transfer more energy because of its diameter and will have more momentum to carry it through.

The wrong bullet choice and/or a bad shot placement with a larger bullet will not necessarily improve hunter success. A well placed shot with the appropriate bullet for the game will have the most effect on hunter success.

With all other variables being the same, the larger bullet will normally out perform the smaller bullet with knock down power.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Varminator 911]

You have to compare a 6.5 that equals the energy of the 300 at impact - my argument is that energy at impact is more important than bullet diameter alone. I am not contesting that you can generate more energy with a heavy fast .308

A 264 and 308 with the same weight, bullet construction, and energy will perform about the same. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. So you are right in my estimation. A 6.5x284 Norma isn't much different than a 308. Get a magnum 308 caliber set up for long range with a bullet 50% bigger, just as fast, and probably a little more BC and it's a lot different story.

 

[.300H&H]

I think there's a decent argument of proper bullet speed for desired performance is potentially more important than energy and bullet diameter. This argument would also support your desired theory better than trying to throw the energy card out there, 30cal energy is pretty easy to trump 6.5 energy so long as the shooter can handle the recoil. Which also leads to why I believe the 6.5ers preach magical capabilities compared to 30cal. Fast heavy 30cal projectiles burn more powder, recoil more, and are just plain not as enjoyable or as easy to shoot proficiently. Sure they can be built on heavier platforms and braked, also making them less enjoyable to hunt with.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Energy had to be part of the equation. Problem is it is not a significant part of the equation. You can hit an animal with xxx bullet and have it bounce off leaving all of its energy in the animal. Same shot with different xxx bullet that zips through without any bullet deformation. Leaving much less energy in the animal. Neither one is good. Thus the best purpose for the energy value of a given cartridge is to compare one to another.

Clear ballistics gel testing with video is getting closer to the front of the stove. Just time and money. I am not sure that that data transfers directly to animals. They are the variable that can't be duplicated.

 

[Milepost]

I don't disagree with anything you said - but isn't energy king? The cool thing about the energy formula is that it takes into consideration the mass of the object. It can't just be about impact velocity or we would be shooting 204 rugers and 22-250s. Mass also has to be a consideration. Because of the formula to calculate energy allows velocity more influence than say momentum, I would think energy at impact would support your position. It also supports mine.

You can't have equal impact velocities from a 264 and a .308 (unless the bullets weights are the same) and have the same "shock" or wound channel because the lighter .264 would have less energy. The impact velocity of the 264 would have to be significantly higher at impact in order to equal energy.

This whole post came about because there was another thread where a guy was asking if a 26 nosler with 140's would be better than a 300 win mag with 180's for elk at 500 yards. When I looked at the energy numbers at 500 yards they were crazy similar - so I came to the conclusion that they would work equally well.

Lots of people were saying the 300 win mag was a much better option. Lots of people scoff at high velocity rounds like the 26 Nosler and the 6.5-300 wby. In my mind if the 300 win were really a better option then the difference of .044 diameter bullet between the two would have to cause an exponential increase in the damage caused. I am not sure it does given equal energy at impact.

I think the guy was shooting accubonds. But the same thing could apply to hammers - i haven't done any ballistic gel testing, if you have, have you noticed an exponential increase in the wound channel from a hot 26 nosler or 6.5-300 vs a 300 win mag with similar energy at impact? I genuinely want to know - I don't believe there would be a material difference given the same bullet construction. I am open to being wrong though.

It would be cool to hear from some of the guys hunting with the 26 Nosler and 6.5-300 and see what experiences they have had - they are obviously fewer of them than 300 mag guys.

Picking the appropriate bullet and shooting at 500 yards then I would agree with you that the results would be similar comparing a .308. BUT, AGAIN you don't have the luxury of picking the range you shoot at. Suppose that elk is only 100 yards away or maybe 900 yards away. Up close we can put the bullet where it will be most lethal. Windage and extreme accuracy aren't as important but at thousand yards it is everything!

So it seems to me your confusing energy with lethality and that is IMO a mistake.
They are not one in the same. How much energy does an arrow have??

What you need to research is the KO (knock out) factor needed for hunting game animals. It's an old formula that takes into affect variables such as type and size of game, the diameter, SD and bullet construction used as well as the speed when they hit the animal. Energy needed is a byproduct of this formula and not the rule. Dangerous game animals have a much higher KO factor/index than similar weight deer species

 

[Capt RB]

SECTIONAL DENSITY has alot to do with a cartridge's performance. I shot Steel Friday with my 270 130's @ 3055. I shot the same plate with 147's in a creed A 2830. Plate was 300yds the difference was amazing. I've been a 270 honk for 30+ years now. The divots from the 6.5 impressed not only me but the guy shooting his new RPR .338 Lap. The 270 hits were a nice 1.5" 5 shot group with 2 touching. just knocked the paint off the plate. One has an SD of .301 the other is in the lower .2's

 

[FIGJAM]

A 264 and 308 with the same weight, bullet construction, and energy will perform about the same. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. So you are right in my estimation. A 6.5x284 Norma isn't much different than a 308. Get a magnum 308 caliber set up for long range with a bullet 50% bigger, just as fast, and probably a little more BC and it's a lot different story.

I agree - thats is because of the additional energy. I could also argue that you could add velocity to the 264 and surpass the performance of 308, because energy will be greater.

 

[Milepost]

I think there's a decent argument of proper bullet speed for desired performance is potentially more important than energy and bullet diameter. This argument would also support your desired theory better than trying to throw the energy card out there, 30cal energy is pretty easy to trump 6.5 energy so long as the shooter can handle the recoil. Which also leads to why I believe the 6.5ers preach magical capabilities compared to 30cal. Fast heavy 30cal projectiles burn more powder, recoil more, and are just plain not as enjoyable or as easy to shoot proficiently. Sure they can be built on heavier platforms and braked, also making them less enjoyable to hunt with.

Enjoyable to shoot or tolerable....?

First rule is to show respect for the animal you shoot by trying to get a DRT shot. If you can't shoot accurately or tolerate the caliber your shooting to accomplish that then you should move to a smaller caliber and get closer or shoot smaller game... just my 2 cents

 

[Canhunter35]

I've shot a number of deer with the 168eldm and now some with the 143eldx, they are within 50fps mv, around 250yds the 143 begins to overtake the 168 in energy. Yet inside 500(I've shot deer near 500 with both) the 168 creates the larger wound channel and is more forgiving despite having less energy. It's on the light end of 30cal vs heavy 6.5cal bullets. Bullet diameter is clearly the underlying factor of the improved performance. With a decent shot either is plenty appropriate.
Saying that, the reason I hunt with the 6.5 now is it's simply better in the wind and easier to place the shot along with my 6.5 is my most accurate rifle.

 

[FIGJAM]

I've shot a number of deer with the 168eldm and now some with the 143eldx, they are within 50fps mv, around 250yds the 143 begins to overtake the 168 in energy. Yet inside 500(I've shot deer near 500 with both) the 168 creates the larger wound channel and is more forgiving despite having less energy. It's on the light end of 30cal vs heavy 6.5cal bullets. Bullet diameter is clearly the underlying factor of the improved performance. With a decent shot either is plenty appropriate.
Saying that, the reason I hunt with the 6.5 now is it's simply better in the wind and easier to place the shot along with my 6.5 is my most accurate rifle.

This is good stuff - if others have had the same experience then maybe bullet diameter is king.

 

[Milepost]

You have to compare a 6.5 that equals the energy of the 300 at impact - my argument is that energy at impact is more important than bullet diameter alone. I am not contesting that you can generate more energy with a heavy fast .308

??? Look again... I was comparing equal energy at impact. That same 1500 ft/lbs of energy is at 990 yards with a 215 Berger and the 6.5 140 VLD makes the same energy at just 670 yards. Which means if I use 1500 ft/lbs of energy as my minimum to take a bull elk I can use that 300 WM all the way out to 990 yards and if i use a 6.5 SAUM I'm limiting myself to 670 yards or less

 

[FIGJAM]

??? Look again... I was comparing equal energy at impact. That same 1500 ft/lbs of energy is at 990 yards with a 215 Berger and the 6.5 140 VLD makes the same energy at just 670 yards. Which means if I use 1500 ft/lbs of energy as my minimum to take a bull elk I can use that 300 WM all the way out to 990 yards and if i use a 6.5 SAUM I'm limiting myself to 670 yards or less

I think we are in agreement - Let me ask the question this way - do you believe the performance of the 6.5 140gr vld at 670 yards is equal to the 215 gr 308 bullet at 990?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think we are in agreement - Let me ask the question this way - do you believe the performance of the 6.5 140gr vld at 670 yards is equal to the 215 gr 308 bullet at 990?

Ha now it's getting tougher! What are the impact velocities? I think the answers to this question are going to be almost purely opinion. Without knowing the impact vel of each scenario I am leaning toward the 308.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

This thread is great for convincing myself I need a 338