Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[FIGJAM]

I know in my original post, I limited it to .264, .284 and .308 diameters.

We could have easlily made the discussion about the .308 vs the .338 for the purposes or my question.

I wonder if that would change anybody's opinion? That if the energy at impact from a 300 win mag was the same as a 338 win mag would they be equally effective?

As I have gone back and read through this thread there is some definite caliber bias (not pointing fingers at anyone, I am also guilty if this) - I have been trying to take that out of the discussion and get down to the the physics - would a 230gr 338 kill better than a 230 gr .308 bullet at equal impact energy?

I am not looking to rehash all of this, just trying to get everyone to think outside bias...but I am wondering if the law of dimishing marginal returns applies here?

 

[Greyfox]

I think your are dead on with everything you said here!

I too really like the 6.5 but limit myself to cow elk under 500 yards. But there is an 800 lb. Gorilla about to enter the room and it is the 155-156 gr. Berger. I think this bullet matched up with a 26 Nosler would be awesome combo. The heavier bullet will slow down the big Magnum speeds which should help for the up close shots and the higher SD will help it smash thru bone better. The higher BC will add another 100-200 yards to your said limits.

Agreed....if the bullet ever gets delivered...and meets performance expectations. I heard Berger was having issues with the bullet. If it plays out I'll give it a try.

 

[Canhunter35]

I think your are dead on with everything you said here!

I too really like the 6.5 but limit myself to cow elk under 500 yards. But there is an 800 lb. Gorilla about to enter the room and it is the 155-156 gr. Berger. I think this bullet matched up with a 26 Nosler would be awesome combo. The heavier bullet will slow down the big Magnum speeds which should help for the up close shots and the higher SD will help it smash thru bone better. The higher BC will add another 100-200 yards to your said limits.

Unfortunately, I think The 156 will likely perform like the 7mm 195berger does, I haven't seen a single review on exceptional performance on game anywhere with that bullet.

 

[Milepost]

Yes, there will always be some caliber bias.... If something works and works well for you then why change? I think cartridge availability also has to be regarded too..

But this has been a great thread because it checked all the boxes on the terminal performance of two different calibers using 1500 ft/lbs of energy.

The bullet does the deed and the the energy is the motive force that allows it to do its job. It's how and where the bullet expends that stored energy within the animal that gives you a DRT. Any bullet that passes thru an animal did not expend all its energy within that animal. Ideally we want most of the energy to be dispersed in the chest cavity. Some of that energy has to used to smash thru flesh and bone first to get there.
So it stands to reason that the more flesh and bone we have to smash thru the less energy we have left to cause terminal damage in the vitals. Selecting the right bullet for the job is paramount. You can't expect a bullet that is ideal for an elk to work the same way on an antelope. Will it get the job done? Sure, but it's not ideal. IMO-Picking the right bullet of any caliber that will do the job for the game I am hunting is my first priority. The bullet selection and energy required for it to do its work is based on the animal size and it will dictate the maximum range for my shot based on the cartridge used. aka.. muzzle velocity.

 

[Canhunter35]

I know in my original post, I limited it to .264, .284 and .308 diameters.

We could have easlily made the discussion about the .308 vs the .338 for the purposes or my question.

I wonder if that would change anybody's opinion? That if the energy at impact from a 300 win mag was the same as a 338 win mag would they be equally effective?

As I have gone back and read through this thread there is some definite caliber bias (not pointing fingers at anyone, I am also guilty if this) - I have been trying to take that out of the discussion and get down to the the physics - would a 230gr 338 kill better than a 230 gr .308 bullet at equal impact energy?

I am not looking to rehash all of this, just trying to get everyone to think outside bias...but I am wondering if the law of dimishing marginal returns applies here?

The 338 wins over the 308 just as the 375 wins over the 338 if energy is equal, no doubt about it. But we will start to get weird comparisons because the bullets become tougher and more often made for dangerous game as you get into the really large diameter bullets.
As for comparing 30-30 to a 264, maybe inside of 100 yds it might be more effective, but the mv is so anemic that it really hampers a bullets effectiveness. There are limits an muzzle velocity is a pretty good indicator of a bullets behaviour

 

[Milepost]

Unfortunately, I think The 156 will likely perform like the 7mm 195berger does, I haven't seen a single review on exceptional performance on game anywhere with that bullet.

True Dat! I thought the same too, but then I crunched some numbers. The sectional density of the 7mm 195 is a whopping .345! The 156 Berger should be around .319 almost identical to the 180 VLD and the new .270 cal 170 Elite hunter.

I personally think that the 195 has too much SD for its design and is very sensitive to shot placement and game size affecting where the bullet dumps its energy.

 

[Milepost]

The 338 wins over the 308 just as the 375 wins over the 338 if energy is equal, no doubt about it. But we will start to get weird comparisons because the bullets become tougher and more often made for dangerous game as you get into the really large diameter bullets.
As for comparing 30-30 to a 264, maybe inside of 100 yds it might be more effective, but the mv is so anemic that it really hampers a bullets effectiveness. There are limits an muzzle velocity is a pretty good indicator of a bullets behaviour

I think of it this way. For any given bullet the more MV I have the farther out I can shoot. The bullets terminal behavior is dictated by its design and the speed it hits the animal. As long as the the bullet hits within the terminal speed zone for which it was designed all is good as long I do my part.

A 215 Berger shot from my 300 Norma Mag at 3100fps has 1880 ft/lbs energy at 1000 yards
A 215 Berger shot from a 308 Winchester at 2500 fps has the same 1880 ft/lbs of energy at 530 yards.

The elk is just as dead either way.

Guess which one makes a better woods gun??

 

[Varminator 911]

True Dat! I thought the same too, but then I crunched some numbers. The sectional density of the 7mm 195 is a whopping .345! The 156 Berger should be around .319 almost identical to the 180 VLD and the new .270 cal 170 Elite hunter.

I personally think that the 195 has too much SD for its design and is very sensitive to shot placement and game size affecting where the bullet dumps its energy.

I think what might be wrong with both the 195 and 230 Berger is a smaller hollow tip than the 215. I know the 215 has a large area in the tip that's hollow. It extends back to about half bullet diameter. So when the bullet hits game and the copper jacket is crushed back on the tip there is a large blunt area of lead to initiate expansion. If the 230 in 308 and the 195 in 7mm have a smaller hollow tip, expansion will happen less readily. Combine that with the lower velocity that comes with a heavier bullet and you get less expansion. This is conjecture on my part since I haven't seen all these bullets sectioned. But I do know that the 230 isn't much longer than the 215. It may be that way because of twist requirements. They didn't want to make the bullet too long so filled the tip out further with lead.

 

[Canhunter35]

I think of it this way. For any given bullet the more MV I have the farther out I can shoot. The bullets terminal behavior is dictated by its design and the speed it hits the animal. As long as the the bullet hits within the terminal speed zone for which it was designed all is good as long I do my part.

A 215 Berger shot from my 300 Norma Mag at 3100fps has 1880 ft/lbs energy at 1000 yards
A 215 Berger shot from a 308 Winchester at 2500 fps has the same 1880 ft/lbs of energy at 530 yards.

The elk is just as dead either way.

Guess which one makes a better woods gun??

Lol, plugging a 215 into a 308 and getting 2500fps takes a little over 3" of mag coal so your forced to use a long action either way, but follow ups will be much faster from the 308
When I go bush hunting I take a semi auto 308...

 

[Canhunter35]

I think what might be wrong with both the 195 and 230 Berger is a smaller hollow tip than the 215. I know the 215 has a large area in the tip that's hollow. It extends back to about half bullet diameter. So when the bullet hits game and the copper jacket is crushed back on the tip there is a large blunt area of lead to initiate expansion. If the 230 in 308 and the 195 in 7mm have a smaller hollow tip, expansion will happen less readily. Combine that with the lower velocity that comes with a heavier bullet and you get less expansion. This is conjecture on my part since I haven't seen all these bullets sectioned. But I do know that the 230 isn't much longer than the 215. It may be that way because of twist requirements. They didn't want to make the bullet too long so filled the tip out further with lead.

The 195 and 230 might have thicker copper jackets because of the faster twist rates also limiting expansion?

 

[Milepost]

The 195 and 230 might have thicker copper jackets because of the faster twist rates also limiting expansion?

I'm pretty sure the 215 has a thicker jacket as it was initially introduced as a tactical and match bullet first then later found to be an awesome hunting bullet too!

I think that their is a lot of merit in what Varminator mentioned about the small hollow tips. It doesn't take much to plug or tweak them. That has a huge effect on expansion. That's why a lot of hunters will only single load them.

 

[Capt RB]

Lol, plugging a 215 into a 308 and getting 2500fps takes a little over 3" of mag coal so your forced to use a long action either way, but follow ups will be much faster from the 308
When I go bush hunting I take a semi auto 308...

I got 2640fps @ 2.865 coal with CFE223 in my 12tw. It won't shoot for me but it does have the speed to be effective in a tighter twist. Montana Marine posted a video with 2600fps with Rl17 from his 22" 12tw. I'm fairly certain my 26" would have more speed with Rl17 but with my typical DA being a minus number it won't matter with that pill.

 

[Varminator 911]

I'm pretty sure the 215 has a thicker jacket as it was initially introduced as a tactical and match bullet first then later found to be an awesome hunting bullet too!

I think that their is a lot of merit in what Varminator mentioned about the small hollow tips. It doesn't take much to plug or tweak them. That has a huge effect on expansion. That's why a lot of hunters will only single load them.

It's not the tip in the very nose that I'm talking about. There's a large hollow area on the front of the 215 bullet. On impact the copper jacket is going to crush instantly back onto the lead. Then to avoid penciling the lead needs to expand.

The 195 is a hunting bullet, the 215 and 230 are target bullets. Do the target bullets have thicker jackets?

 

[bigngreen]

It's not the tip in the very nose that I'm talking about. There's a large hollow area on the front of the 215 bullet. On impact the copper jacket is going to crush instantly back onto the lead. Then to avoid penciling the lead needs to expand.

The 195 is a hunting bullet, the 215 and 230 are target bullets. Do the target bullets have thicker jackets?

The nose of the jacket does not crush back, every one I've recovered shows it opens from the base of the lead up to the tip with hydraulic pressure. It's very, very interesting as it's a little different way to think how these bullets open.