Improving the 308 Win performance

[4th_point]

How many grains of Varget? Were you able to get a velocity?

I don't have load data in front of me but based on memory it was ~47gr Varget at 2700+ from 16" with can. Lapua, CCI 200, and 150 BDII. I used the SIG/Magpul magazine because I wanted the SIG follower which feeds shells well simply dropping them into the ejection port. It limits overall length though.

 

[340 in Va]

Maybe you should do the math. The G1BC of the 150 gr .308 BD2 bullet is 0.515. At 3050 fps, which I get all the time from my 24" 1:9 Bartlein using a SAAMI 308 chamber loaded to 2.980" to mag feed at 5000 ft elevation which is where a lot of Elk hunting is done, at 59degreesF 50% humidity and 1 ATM corrected to that altitude the bullet at 900 yds is going over 1800 fps and has 1080 ft# energy. The bullet expands at 1700 fps impact. A 150 gr copper Etip in a 3006 per listed data in the 2021 Hodgdon Annual Manual from a 24" barrel has a max listed MV of 2947 fps. The BC of that bullet is listed at G1=0.469 (see Noslers pic below). I did not propose this thread to argue the point of whether the 308Win is better or worse than anything else. I apologize if you are getting that impression. The purpose of the thread is to stimulate discussion on what modern components can improve the performance of the 308 Win with the idea that concepts developed along similar lines could do the same for other cartridges. In my mind there are quite a few things that can be done beyond just using a higher energy powder. I would like to see what other guys have done along those lines.

If I do the math and compare apples to apples and use the same 30 cal. bullet in both guns with same barrel length then 30-06 outperforms 308. Both are good rounds but would not use them past 500. Thats just me, I try to plan for when things don't go right.

 

[craig hicks]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think the commercial and military loadings for the 308 Win with cheap lead core bullets cause the cartridge to have a mediocre reputation. I too have hunted world wide including Africa, Canada, Alaska and the US with all kinds of lead core and Barnes bullets in various calibers including 6mm, 308 magnums, and 338 magnums, and have come to realize that the 308 Win is as universal a hunting cartridge as there is. I put a lot of effort to get within 500 yds of the target, use bullets that have superb weight retention AND extreme penetration at quartering angles of impact. I would not hesitate to shoot Moose or Elk with that cartridge using the right bullet, because it is the bullet doing the work. The cartridge simply imparts the velocity, and with the right components and barrel length, generally 20-24", it is not difficult to achieve 3000+ ft-lbs of bullet energy. Once the bullet leaves the barrel it is how well it retains it's energy, how reliably it expands, how deeply it penetrates, and whether it hits and destroys vital organs,

All very erudite. I speak from the experiences I have had. Wearing out the Vibram soles, thawing a bolt action over canned heat, etc. And yes, shooting mule deer with a .308 Winchester, handloaded to exact specs and techniques from the benchrest wars. I was asked, here, what caliber I shoot. I have gone through them all. SAUM's 375 H&H down to .257 Roberts.
My choice for deer......270 Winchester.

 

[greenejc]

When you start talking killing elk....
from experience if they are excited or alerted...... Like a whitetail deer only worse....
they can seem running on pure adrenalin juice....
and your talking going for one hell of a walk.....
Yes..... you can kill an elk with a .22 RF....
Trust me...... use enough gun and save on your legs.....
OMHO.... let the flames roll.....

I use a 35 Whelen, a 300 Winmag or a 30-06. If you're getting 3,000fps from a .308 Win with a 150gr. bullet, its probably above SAAMI pressures. I can get over 2850fps with a 30-06 and 165 grain Speers or 168 grain Sierra Matchkings in a 24" barrel. The right powders will give me over 2600 with either the Speer or the Sierra 200 grain bullets in the 30-06. The .308 won't do that safely. Sorry, that's just physics.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I use a 35 Whelen, a 300 Winmag or a 30-06. If you're getting 3,000fps from a .308 Win with a 150gr. bullet, its probably above SAAMI pressures. I can get over 2850fps with a 30-06 and 165 grain Speers or 168 grain Sierra Matchkings in a 24" barrel. The right powders will give me over 2600 with either the Speer or the Sierra 200 grain bullets in the 30-06. The .308 won't do that safely. Sorry, that's just physics.

You're wrong with your statement about the 150's. With the proper powder and 150 bullets it's very easily attainable.

This is some older loading data that doesn't have some of the newer higher energy powders. See below. Badlands 150 for me pressures up less than the Barnes.

 

[44-40]

The guy in the photo below killed this Elk with a 195 gr Badlands 195 gr 308BD2 bullet at 1225 yds single DRT shot. At impact we calculated the bullet was going about 1770 fps. Anybody with a 308 Win using BD2 at a closer range where the bullet impacts with higher energy will very likely have the same result. In this thread we are not here to argue one's opinions about the most appropriate bullet for any given animal. Suffice it to say that a lot of Elk have been killed easily with 7mm Badlands BD2 bullets weighing < 150 gr including Texas heart shots with full length pass through. The reason is that the all copper construction, ductility of the material and the tipped hollow point design which allows for a petaling that also takes advantage of the twist rate of the bullet in facilitating extreme penetration with very high weight retention, all conspire to achieve a lethality that far exceeds that of lead core bullets both at close and very extended ranges.

Total ********! ...And that is fact.
Run the ballistics the 195 gr would have to have a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps on and average day to get 1770 fps at 1225 yards. High in the mountains would help but cold weather would make it worse ...but no 308 can reach that velocity, with 195 BD with a given G7 BC of .345 which must be employed after 1000yd to even be accurate information over the G1 BC of .675
I can reach 2856 as a standard load with .360 G7 BC with the 200 gr SMK or max 2950 with hybrid cases and a 30" 8 twist barrel, but even run those at 2910 fps for general work with the powders available and tested so far, and it's definitely not Leverevolution...and that is the best 308 load for bullet velocity and energy down range, and that would get you 700 to 800 yds and still meet the criteria of 1500 ft lbs and 2000 fps. Even the normally available big magnums are hard pressed to meet that criteria at 900 yds, as very few would make 2000 fps the minimum expansion velocity of most bullets. Copper even harder to get to expand if it's designed for high velocity. And the bullet is 1.650" long according to the site they state will stablize in a 10 twist, if it does it will be marginal and not hold its BC for longer shots and becomes unstable. Plus I like the exactly 1225 yds, it's usually not like that ...clue #1. And he's out of parameters with velocity and energy. So I could shoot an elk at 1225 with a 22 LR accidentally hit the brain and it would fall over proclaiming tbe 22 LR a 1200 yd elk cartridge. I like the 308 Win but it ain't magical. We are supposed to be improving it not overstating its general usefulness and current potential.

 

[JAYgs8163]

And you can do what you're doing with your 30-06 and 165/168's also with the 308.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Total ********! ...And that is fact.
Run the ballistics the 195 gr would have to have a muzzle velocity of 3250 fps on and average day to get 1770 fps at 1225 yards. High in the mountains would help but cold weather would make it worse ...but no 308 can reach that velocity, with 195 BD with a given G7 BC of .345 which must be employed after 1000yd to even be accurate information over the G1 BC of .675
I can reach 2856 as a standard load with .360 G7 BC with the 200 gr SMK or max 2950 with hybrid cases and a 30" 8 twist barrel, but even run those at 2910 fps for general work with the powders available and tested so far, and it's definitely not Leverevolution...and that is the best 308 load for bullet velocity and energy down range, and that would get you 700 to 800 yds and still meet the criteria of 1500 ft lbs and 2000 fps. Even the normally available big magnums are hard pressed to meet that criteria at 900 yds, as very few would make 2000 fps the minimum expansion velocity of most bullets. Copper even harder to get to expand if it's designed for high velocity. And the bullet is 1.650" long according to the site they state will stablize in a 10 twist, if it does it will be marginal and not hold its BC for longer shots and becomes unstable. Plus I like the exactly 1225 yds, it's usually not like that ...clue #1. And he's out of parameters with velocity and energy. So I could shoot an elk at 1225 with a 22 LR accidentally hit the brain and it would fall over proclaiming tbe 22 LR a 1200 yd elk cartridge. I like the 308 Win but it ain't magical. We are supposed to be improving it not overstating its general usefulness and current potential.

I don't think he ever stated a 308 rifle was used for that shot. He was stating what the 308 195 bullet is capable of. With a 300PRC or 300RUM those velocities are attainable! Read what he wrote in detail and I think you'll see what @nralifer was saying.

 

[44-40]

I use a 35 Whelen, a 300 Winmag or a 30-06. If you're getting 3,000fps from a .308 Win with a 150gr. bullet, its probably above SAAMI pressures. I can get over 2850fps with a 30-06 and 165 grain Speers or 168 grain Sierra Matchkings in a 24" barrel. The right powders will give me over 2600 with either the Speer or the Sierra 200 grain bullets in the 30-06. The .308 won't do that safely. Sorry, that's just physics.

Yes you can safely get 3000 fps out of a 308 with 150 gr bullets. I personally shot 17,000 match 155 Lapua bullets at 3000 fps for 1000 to 1400 yds target shooting, for a number of yrs, and it's very accurate.

 

[44-40]

I don't think he ever stated a 308 rifle was used for that shot. He was stating what the 308 195 bullet is capable of. With a 300PRC or 300RUM those velocities are attainable! Read what he wrote in detail and I think you'll see what @nralifer was saying.

Then why post it as a 308 in an improving the 308 thread? That's number 1....Number 2 is I own a modified 300 RUM to feed 4.00" cartridges...the 300 PRC can not reach the 3250 fps required... and I was at 3150 fps with the 300 RUM and 208 grs was maxed out. You might with a 30" to 32" barreled, throated 300 RUM, get the 3250 fps needed, to get those numbers claimed...if the numbers change, the cartridge changes, the claim charges...its false. The whole story is BS and outside the parameters of the discussion . If 195 gr fired at 3050 or 3100 fps from a PRC or RUM dropping it to most likely a 800 yd elk cartridge at best, no matter the case it was fired in. The parameters of 2000 fps and 1500 ft/lbs for adequate bullet performance only make a about 200 yd difference for most of the big magnums, if that.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Im sure he was disputing someone's comment.

Whatever you say captain expert. I disagree with your logic and reread what he wrote in detail. He goes onto explain it later in the post. By the way it's his thread, he's the OP. Chill out!

Who knows maybe it was a 30-378 Bee. I'm sure @nralifer will explain since you're calling him a BSer.

 

[DoneNOut]

If anybody is tired of this 83 page thread, the OP made yet another thread just today on the same topic. I was accused of beating a dead horse...

 

[craig hicks]

The whole story is BS and outside the parameters of the discussion . If 195 gr fired at 3050 or 3100 fps from a PRC or RUM dropping it to most likely a 800 yd elk cartridge at best, no matter the case it was fired in. The parameters of 2000 fps and 1500 ft/lbs for adequate bullet performance only make a about 200 yd difference for most of the big magnums, if that.

Scant little reality in this entire forum as far as I can see.

 

[DoneNOut]

And the Bro figured this out 5 posts in! Beautiful!