How close are RL17 and H4350?

[mdmiller]

It's stock at this moment

Winchester StaBall Smokeless Powder | Midsouth Shooters

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No more stock, I got the last one!

 

[rbTanzan]

Congratulations.
I would recommend others to keep watching Midsouth and others. WINCHESTER has apparently been producing a lot of StaBall65.

 

[Rocketeer77]

I'm currently doing some looking into the best powders for the 338 RCM, and I am seeing a good bit about RL17. Problem is I can't find any right now. Last week I picked up some H4350 just because I know it is pretty versatile, and I see now that it is right next to RL17 on IMR's burn rate chart with H4350 being #124 and RL17 being #125. I'm curious to know if these two powders behave similarly in cartridges like the 338 RCM and if I could work up with H4350 from a start load of RL17. Thanks!

Also I'm all ears for powder suggestions for the 338 RCM. I have H4831SC, Varget, IMR3031, TAC, and the aforementioned H4350 that might make good candidates.

My charts have them each side of the other, but right next door. You should be fine

 

[rbTanzan]

I'm currently doing some looking into the best powders for the 338 RCM, and I am seeing a good bit about RL17. Problem is I can't find any right now. Last week I picked up some H4350 just because I know it is pretty versatile, and I see now that it is right next to RL17 on IMR's burn rate chart with H4350 being #124 and RL17 being #125. I'm curious to know if these two powders behave similarly in cartridges like the 338 RCM and if I could work up with H4350 from a start load of RL17. Thanks!

Also I'm all ears for powder suggestions for the 338 RCM. I have H4831SC, Varget, IMR3031, TAC, and the aforementioned H4350 that might make good candidates.

The biggest limitation with the 338RCM is powder capacity. So part of your question is what bullets and bullet weights are you planning to shoot?

For example, if going with something like a 185gnTTSX, you might need to go faster than H4350. Perhaps try H4895. If that is not available, I would try Varget, that you listed above.

For heavier bullets, e.g. 225gnTTSX or 250gn, you might find that H4350 can produce a decent load, but you will probably want more space and should consider StaBall6.5. Hodgdon lists 59.8 gn max load, and uncompressed!, in the 338-06 with a 250gn Hornady for 2572fps. [The 338-RCM has about 2 grains more capacity than the 338-06, but the RCM has a short neck and loses its nominal advantage with medium to longer bullets, so that it is very similar to the 338-06, sometimes getting by on a grain or so less powder than a 338-06 load with longer/heavier bullets.]

Another space-saving alternative would be CFE223. It might be best to use a magnum primer with CFE223 and would require that you re-zero and/or re-test between summer and winter loads. That can often be accommodated by adding or subtracting a grain of powder.

 

[rob257]

All is well brother, I quit my job and started a new business so I've been off the grid for a bit, on top on top of that there were a handful of folks that said I was ruining this forum so I wanted to make sure that I wasn't

I always value your knowledge and expertise. I have learned a lot from you. Keep posting

 

[Mike Matteson]

The long range target shooter generally using H4350. IMR 4350 and 4831 I got a little better velocity from that type of powder, but about took my rifle apart between hot and cold weather temp. I am going to use a 1# of IMR 4831 to fireform a hundred cases, but that it.

 

[mdmiller]

All is well brother, I quit my job and started a new business so I've been off the grid for a bit, on top on top of that there were a handful of folks that said I was ruining this forum so I wanted to make sure that I wasn't

Bean, your new business, can any of us shooters buy anything from you??
Or is it non shooting related, just wondering!

 

[Mike Matteson]

All is well brother, I quit my job and started a new business so I've been off the grid for a bit, on top on top of that there were a handful of folks that said I was ruining this forum so I wanted to make sure that I wasn't

ButterBeam.
I value your input, We may not see eye to eye all the time, but each of us are allowed our own opinion, and what makes the world go around. Good Luck on your new business. Keep us posted.

 

[dogz]

I've tried RL17 in several different calibers and it usually got better velo than H4350 but temp stability and group consistency results always went in favor of H4350.

If you don't mind please tell me about your process for measuring temp stability?

 

[Mike Matteson]

This is from Bryan Litz gave his rule of thumb for how muzzle velocities may vary with temperature from different types of rifle powder. Good Double-Base Powders 1fps per degree Fahrenheit, Average Single Base Powder, 0.3 to 0.5 fps per degree degree Fahrenheit. Best Single Base Powders: 0.1 to 0.2 fps per degree Fahrenheit. 94% of shooters finishing in the top 100 in the Precision Rifle Series (PRS) choose to run one of gun powders from Hodgdon Extreme Series of powders, like H4350 and Varget. That because the Hodgdon Extreme powders will provide consistent muzzle velocities across virtually any environment. Hodgdon Extreme preform just as well at 125 degree as they do at ) degrees.
SD DESCRIPTION CHART
20+fps excessive muzzle velocity variation. Not suitable for long range shooting, but ok for short range use. 15fps good factory ammunition or poor hand-loads. Useable for long range shooting but not ideal. 10fps Exceptional factory ammunition or average hand-loads. Acceptable for many long-range shooting applications. 10fps will give you approximately 1 MOA of vertical dispersion at 1000yds. 5fps Un-heard of for factory ammunition, and represents the best hand-loads. 5fps will give you approximately 1/2 MOA at 1000yds.

 

[Roughrice]

Dogz,

Sure.
I live in South Louisiana. If you leave steel tools out during hot summer temperatures like today... you can't hold them in your hands. If I go to the range and the ammo and rifle gets hot... as you know things change. We keep shot strings short and put in shade to not overheat. If a barrel gets really hot, it may be done for the day as it takes very long to cool.
If I have ammo that was loaded in the winter (cooler months) I'll be cautious and review load data before shooting it in excessive heat. I've had tight bolt lift to no extraction and broke a bolt handle off with a maul. (Yeah... dumb move).
Therefore... although some powders give a tad more velocity, I prefer staying with powders known to have better temp stability for more peace of mind.
Today my buddy shot a few too many of a certain powder with a slightly hot load and began to have tight bolt lift after the ammo sat in the sun and the barrel and chamber heated up. His POI went to **** and he began to get frustrated after missing steel plates. Of course they all get hot quickly in these conditions.

Of the two powders particularly discussed... H4350 gives me the confidence and worry free range day with the least amount of velocity and pressure swings from hot to cold to hot temperatures.
No computer generated numbers or paper charts used in my findings. Only experience and simple science.

I do still have and use RL17 in loads from time to time. I think is a fine powder that does great in some ammo.
I'm only giving my opinion, due to my results, of the difference between the two.
Respectfully...Others may have different conditions, results and opinions than mine.

My 2 cents.

Happy Memorial Day to All and Thank You for Your Service and Thank You to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice to keep America safe!

May God Bless All !!

 

[dogz]

Thx Roughrice

When I work up loads that I'll be using year round (which is pretty much the only way I do it anymore) I do the load work during the summer. I'll shoot on our hotter days but not our hottest days (I just don't do much outdoors anymore when it's approaching triple digits).

I'm pretty comfy that if the load will work say in the 80's that it'll also work just fine in our colder weather. But, IMO it doesn't work well to the opposite. If one does the opposite and runs into a hot lot of powder then one will have issues.

As for temp sensitivity testing I pick 5 pieces of brass (virgin) that weigh the same, and use the same lot of powder and box of bullets and primers. I only use these components and don't use any other brass and or other powder lots etc (I am very comfy in saying that lots can vary 100 fps or so).

I try to have 3 test days that are in the 80's and I try to have 3 test days that are sub zero (the colder the better as we have more than a bit of elk hunting when it's sub zero). I like 3 different days for each (winter and summer) just to keep the chrono honest and if I hit some weird readings it tends to show up quickly.

I'm on the road and don't have my notes with me but I have found the vast majority of the powders to be very insensitive! Off the top of my head I can recall working with Varget, IMR and Hodgdon 4350's, 7828, R22, R17 and R26. Most likely some more in the mix just can't recall right now.

I just say that it's my opine that this is one the highest over rated things out there. I hear it all the time where people say that this or that powder isn't or is temp sensitive. Then when I ask, they've typically done no real testing regarding it.

Just one mans opinion and findings, hope you have a wonderful Memorial Day!

 

[Roughrice]

Thx Roughrice

When I work up loads that I'll be using year round (which is pretty much the only way I do it anymore) I do the load work during the summer. I'll shoot on our hotter days but not our hottest days (I just don't do much outdoors anymore when it's approaching triple digits).

I'm pretty comfy that if the load will work say in the 80's that it'll also work just fine in our colder weather. But, IMO it doesn't work well to the opposite. If one does the opposite and runs into a hot lot of powder then one will have issues.

As for temp sensitivity testing I pick 5 pieces of brass (virgin) that weigh the same, and use the same lot of powder and box of bullets and primers. I only use these components and don't use any other brass and or other powder lots etc (I am very comfy in saying that lots can vary 100 fps or so).

I try to have 3 test days that are in the 80's and I try to have 3 test days that are sub zero (the colder the better as we have more than a bit of elk hunting when it's sub zero). I like 3 different days for each (winter and summer) just to keep the chrono honest and if I hit some weird readings it tends to show up quickly.

I'm on the road and don't have my notes with me but I have found the vast majority of the powders to be very insensitive! Off the top of my head I can recall working with Varget, IMR and Hodgdon 4350's, 7828, R22, R17 and R26. Most likely some more in the mix just can't recall right now.

I just say that it's my opine that this is one the highest over rated things out there. I hear it all the time where people say that this or that powder isn't or is temp sensitive. Then when I ask, they've typically done no real testing regarding it.

Just one mans opinion and findings, hope you have a wonderful Memorial Day!

I understand completely!
Your temp range sounds like extreme cold to hot. Mine is 20-30 on the very few coldest days to very hot with intense sun that'll heat steel too hot to touch. Many times I read about loads on here that I can't attempt to try because of the heat and humidity.
I use almost all of powders you mentioned except R26 (because I can't find it) and just keep my loads adjusted to climate since summer heat can cause issues.

 

[ButterBean]

ButterBeam.
I value your input, We may not see eye to eye all the time, but each of us are allowed our own opinion, and what makes the world go around. Good Luck on your new business. Keep us posted.

I value yours as well and thank you