High BC Bullet Gap

[TX Badger]

Current Berger line up of hunting bullets. (heaviest/highest BC by caliber)

.243 115 gr VLD Hunting 0.568 0.291 0.956 1:7″
.257 115 gr VLD Hunting 0.483 0.247 1.006 1:9″
.264 140 gr VLD Hunting 0.600 0.307 0.935 1:8″
.277 170 gr EOL Elite Hunter 0.662 0.339 0.935 1:8″
.284 195 gr EOL Elite Hunter 0.755 0.387 0.892 1:8″
.308 210 gr VLD Hunting 0.625 0.320 0.988 1:10″
.338 300 gr Elite Hunter 0.814 0.417 0.900 1:10″

So here's my opinion and hopefully enough of you agree/comment that someone will listen:

1. The long range shooting trend is not going anywhere
2. Most people in this area of interest are looking for high BC bullets for all of their accuracy and terminal performance benefits.
3. There is one really obvious gap in this line up (or that of any of the commercial bullet makers for that matter).
4. There should be a heavy/high BC .257 bullet from someone.

I realize that this needs to be profitable for these companies, but it's going to happen. Why are we delaying the inevitable? I would think that Berger is the most likely candidate as they have made a name as the leader in this category. Also, it should not be a marginal jump that will stabilize in a 1/10 twist because then it's not going to be interesting enough to sell to the target market. (pun unintended) Something in the 130 gr. range (BC should be well into the .6s) would be a great target bullet and out of a 25-06 or 257 Weatherby would be hard to beat as a long range deer set up.

I know this debate has been hashed out on this forum in the past, but as best I could tell, not in the last 2 years. Anyone else up for making another push?


Thanks,

Chris

 

[FearNoWind]

Appears to me that the commercial market is spending its manufacturing dollars on the .264 stuff that's so universally popular these days.
Looks like the .25 guys will have to settle for the 120 grain pills.
Nosler Partition Bullets 25 Caliber (257 Diameter) 120 Grain Spitzer
But what the heck. It's got a BC (advertised) of .391 and you only give up 10 grains. Not too bad a trade off IMO.

 

[bigngreen]

Matrix Ballistics quarter bore to 135 gr.

 

[TX Badger]

There's no doubt how 6.5 crazy the market is, but that just supports my point. Look at the cartridges developed recently:

6.5x47
6.5 gren
260
6.5 creed
6.5x284
26 nosler
all the wildcats...

All developed bc there are high BC bullets avail. in .264. Talk about splitting hairs. This would actually be something new. A whole new excuse for people looking for a better mousetrap to try something else.

I know there are custom bullet makers out there. That is I why I made sure to specify Commercial companies. Matrix does not even list the 135 on their website. I do not want to order a barrel and then be at the mercy of custom bullet runs. It's hard enough to get mainstream components.

 

[FearNoWind]

What I find most interesting about your question, Tx, is that it makes me wonder if the dog wags the tail or vis versa. Does the development of the wildcat drive the bullet manufacturing decision or is it the other way around. If you build it, will they come?

 

[bigngreen]

I know there are custom bullet makers out there. That is I why I made sure to specify Commercial companies. Matrix does not even list the 135 on their website. I do not want to order a barrel and then be at the mercy of custom bullet runs. It's hard enough to get mainstream components.

Hell will freeze over before you see an epic 25 cal bullet, the 165 Matrix is an awesome 270 cal and has dominated for years and been out there and popular but it still took Bob Beck and EOL to swing a big enough stick to get the 170 Berger.
The 130 Matrix is a destroyer and it stabilized better than the 135 in a 10 twist, if you don't want to work with a bullet company that is stepping up and delivering very high quality bullets that other don't really want to make I'd suggest you buy a 6.5! I enjoyed stupid accurate bullets on my door step everytime I ordered through the past few years in red Matrix boxes while my Orange Berger boxes were on back order to eternity, mainstream isn't always better!!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I can say that in the quest to make high bc bullets it is not as simple as just making a long pointy bullet. As a manufacture you have to look at how many people can shoot the thing. There has to be enough twist. Standard twist for the masses is 1-10". Bartlein only shows a 1-10" offering. Much of bc is made by weight, not just really slick looking. It will only get heavier by getting longer, assuming we want a pointed bullet. Then it can't stabilize. Now assume that we can get enough twist to stabilize a much longer bullet so that we can get the weight up. Now if there is too much bearing surface it will create more drag. So we shorten the bearing surface and make it longer yet in order to keep the weight needed to make high bc. Now we have a long high bc bullet that few can stabilize. A difficult bullet to get accuracy out of because it has so little bearing surface compared to total length that it is very finicky. So now we have a bullet that few have enough twist for and a certain percentage of those who do have enough twist will have accuracy problems.

So, all that being said, we will be happy to work with you to design your .257 bullet. We have one in the testing phase that we made for Kirby that looks great. This bullet is designed for a 1-7" twist and is about 135g. We would design a bullet for your twist, cartridge, and atmospheric conditions. We would require you to purchase the test bullets that we send to you and a minimum 1000 bullet order. We can get you where you want to go!

Steve

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

Chicken or egg came first? Honestly,I doubt any bullet manufacturer is going to come out with a bullet that requires a twist rate that isn't available for that caliber. One could argue someone could come out with a sleeker heavier bullet driving barrel makers to catch up but I doubt it unfortunately.

 

[TX Badger]

I know this is an uphill battle and honestly saw most of these opposing points coming because they have been made before. I could argue back about all the reasons that this should be addressed in the market, but that was not my intention. I also understand that making a new and better bullet is literally rocket science and costs money. But I truly believe that this will happen (maybe shortly before Hell freezes over) but there is too much momentum in this direction for it not to happen. The simple fact that there are people out there making custom bullets proves there is a market. I was hoping that stirring this pot would rally some support and get some people's attention who follow these sites to see what the market is asking for. (Litz, Stecker...)

chicken v egg-
The bullet seemed like the better place to start because once its done all you need to do is cut rifling at a different twist rate. Unless there are intricacies to that process that require retooling as well. Maybe a barrel maker will weigh in here. Either way, I do not believe that there were that many people running a 1/8 twist in .277 and .284 until there were bullets that needed to be spun that fast. I know that if I built a 270 wsm with a fast twist for the EOL bullets when they were first announced I would have burned the barrel out before the first orange box actually shipped.

I appreciate the info on Matrix and Hammer Bullets. Maybe this thread should be about a group buy so that I don't have to buy 1000 myself. For now, I have a 6.5 project (260 AI) that I am just starting so I am busy for a while. These projects move a lot slower after the first baby. Maybe by the time I get back to my 25-06 someone will see the light. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I know this is an uphill battle and honestly saw most of these opposing points coming because they have been made before. I could argue back about all the reasons that this should be addressed in the market, but that was not my intention. I also understand that making a new and better bullet is literally rocket science and costs money. But I truly believe that this will happen (maybe shortly before Hell freezes over) but there is too much momentum in this direction for it not to happen. The simple fact that there are people out there making custom bullets proves there is a market. I was hoping that stirring this pot would rally some support and get some people's attention who follow these sites to see what the market is asking for. (Litz, Stecker...)

chicken v egg-
The bullet seemed like the better place to start because once its done all you need to do is cut rifling at a different twist rate. Unless there are intricacies to that process that require retooling as well. Maybe a barrel maker will weigh in here. Either way, I do not believe that there were that many people running a 1/8 twist in .277 and .284 until there were bullets that needed to be spun that fast. I know that if I built a 270 wsm with a fast twist for the EOL bullets when they were first announced I would have burned the barrel out before the first orange box actually shipped.

I appreciate the info on Matrix and Hammer Bullets. Maybe this thread should be about a group buy so that I don't have to buy 1000 myself. For now, I have a 6.5 project (260 AI) that I am just starting so I am busy for a while. These projects move a lot slower after the first baby. Maybe by the time I get back to my 25-06 someone will see the light. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.

We are with you. What you are talking about is what is truly the fun part about working on bullets. Pushing the envelope is much more fun than developing a 25 cal bullet that will work well in the standard 10'' twist that almost all existing rifles are. I get much more excited about working with an 8" twist .308 or a 7" twist .264. But unfortunately we have to look at the return. Just because of our nature, I am sure that when we get a solid line headed out the door, we will spend much more time looking to the future of bullets.

Steve

 

[scottyd2506]

I'm not sure why no one makes a good .257 bullet either for long range. The Age old Excuse of
"Well most 25-06 and other 257 bore guns have 10 twists, so it would not be popular!"

Heard that too many times, When 99.9999999999999999 of all 270 amd other 277 calibers are also 10 twists, yet Berger now sells a 170, Matrix 165's and 175's.
How many factory 6mm gunslike 243 6mm rem etc you see with 8 twists, yet they sell 105 and 115 bergers and other makes.

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

I take what I said back. Lija offers a 1:7 3 groove so the issue may be a lack of interest or not enough quarter bore shooters asking for heavier high B.C bullets.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I'm not sure why no one makes a good .257 bullet either for long range. The Age old Excuse of
"Well most 25-06 and other 257 bore guns have 10 twists, so it would not be popular!"

Heard that too many times, When 99.9999999999999999 of all 270 amd other 277 calibers are also 10 twists, yet Berger now sells a 170, Matrix 165's and 175's.
How many factory 6mm gunslike 243 6mm rem etc you see with 8 twists, yet they sell 105 and 115 bergers and other makes.

Do you have a faster twist .257?

Steve

 

[scottyd2506]

Do you have a faster twist .257?

Steve

Nope, and would not buy one. too little bullet offerings in 25 cal, for my long range. I opted for 7mm caliber. But yeah therte was a time when I would have bought a 8 twist barrel for it if someone made a nice 155 grain bullet. Matrix offers a 160 VLD in the 6.5mm. 264 vs 257, only 0.007 difference.