Head space getting longer

[bigedp51]

Thanks to everyone for helping me out with this one. Seeing as how the newer brass resized properly, I don't think there is an issue with the die or shell holder, (although I am going to purchase the die kit that Dusty noggin posted). I am convinced now that I need to learn how to properly anneal brass. I will move questions with that to a new thread. Thanks again....

If you buy the Redding competition shell holders that Dusty Noggin advised you will make your problem worse. These shell holders are like placing a .002, .004, .006, .008 or .010 feeler gauge between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. Meaning you will have "LESS" shoulder bump than with a normal shell holder.

Competition Shellholder Sets
Now you can control headspace. The new Redding Competition Shellholders are packaged in five piece sets in .002" increments (+.002", +.004". +.006", +.008" and +.010"). Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace. You can now easily adjust the shoulder bump to customize cases to your specific chamber.. The new Redding Competition Shellholders are packaged in five piece sets in .002" increments (+.002", +.004". +.006", +.008" and +.010"). Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace. You can now easily adjust the shoulder bump to customize cases to your specific chamber.

 

[gohring3006]

The Redding comp shell holders are the same except the "floor" of the shell holder. It would be putting that feeler gauge under the case head, NOT on top of the shell holder. Here's a vid Jeff did to better explain.

 

[bigedp51]

A standard factory shell holder has a deck height of .125, meaning from the top of the shell holder to where the base of the cases rests is .125.

The five Redding competition shell holders are in .002 increments starting at the +.002 at .127 and working up to the +010 at .135.

Meaning the five Redding competition shell holders will not push the case into the die as far as a standard shell holder. And are designed for "LESS" shoulder bump than a standard shell holder.

In the video above he started with the +.010 (plus .010) shell holder which is .135 and worked down in size to the +.004 or .129. Meaning he pushed the case into the die .004 less than the standard .125 shell holder.

You can do the same thing by placing a .010 feeler gauge on top of your standard .125 shell holder and adjusting the die to contact the feeler gauge. Then work down to .008 feeler gauge and smaller until the bolt closes without resistance.

Bottom line there are too many people giving out advice on the competition shell holders that do "NOT" know what they are talking about. If you want to bump your case shoulder back more with a standard shell holder you have two choices. 1. Lap the top of the shell holder that will allow the case to be pushed futher into the die, or 2. Machine a few thousandths off the bottom of the die for the same result as lapping the top of the shell holder

The Redding competition shell holders allows you to adjust your die for "LESS" shoulder bump and not have to touch the die.

Below from the Whidden custom die website, and a example of what can happen when machining off the bottom of your die. And a shell holder is cheaper and any reloader can sand the top of his shell holder.

WARNING
Failure to adhere with below warning could result in damaged and unsafe brass!
The Whidden Gunworks Sizer Die is engineered with a shorter overall length (OAL) compared to other manufactures of sizer dies. This means you can set the shoulder back further if desired based on your specific application. This die is not intended to be used while bottomed out or screwed flush with the shell plate. Doing so will result in the shoulder being set back too far, possibly rendering the casing unusable. During initial setup screw the die flush with the shell plate then back off 1-1 ½ turns, NOTE: Each full turn of the Sizer is approx. .071" so it does not have to be turned very far to make a noticeable adjustment. Instructions are included with each die set and can also be found at www.whiddengunworks.com-reloading-dies-instructions.

NOTE, I'm 67 and have been reloading for over 47 years and have only once needed to lap the top of a shell holder. And the vast majority of resizing dies will push the case shoulder back more than needed if the die is adjusted per the instructions. And the Redding competition shell holders are designed for .002 to .010 "LESS" shoulder bump than a standard .125 shell holder.
​

 

[gohring3006]

A standard factory shell holder has a deck hight of .125, meaning from the top of the shell holder to where the base of the cases rests is .125.

The five Redding competition shell holders are in .002 increments starting at the +.002 at .127 and working up to the +010 at .135.

Meaning the five Redding competition shell holders will not push the case into the die as far as a standard shell holder. And are designed for "LESS" shoulder bump than a standard shell holder.

In the video above he started with the +.010 (plus .010) shell holder which is .135 and worked down in size to the +.004 or .129. Meaning he pushed the case into the die .004 less than the standard .125 shell holder.

You can do the same thing by placing a .010 feeler gauge on top of your standard .125 and adjusting the die to contact the feeler gauge. Then work down to .008 feeler gauge and smaller until the bolt closes without resistance.

Bottom line there are too many people giving out advice on the competition shell holders that do "NOT" know what they are talking about. If you want to bump your case shoulder back more with a standard shell holder you have two choices. 1. Lap the top of the shell holder that will allow the case to be pushed futher into the die, or 2. Machine a few thousandths off the bottom of the die for the same result as lapping the top of the shell holder

The Redding competition shell holders allows you to adjust your die for "LESS" shoulder bump and not have to touch the die.

Below from the Whidden custom die website, and a example of what can happen when machining off the bottom of your die. And a shell holder is cheaper and any reloader can sand the top of his shell holder.

WARNING
Failure to adhere with below warning could result in damaged and unsafe brass!
The Whidden Gunworks Sizer Die is engineered with a shorter overall length (OAL) compared to other manufactures of sizer dies. This means you can set the shoulder back further if desired based on your specific application. This die is not intended to be used while bottomed out or screwed flush with the shell plate. Doing so will result in the shoulder being set back too far, possibly rendering the casing unusable. During initial setup screw the die flush with the shell plate then back off 1-1 ½ turns, NOTE: Each full turn of the Sizer is approx. .071" so it does not have to be turned very far to make a noticeable adjustment. Instructions are included with each die set and can also be found at www.whiddengunworks.com-reloading-dies-instructions.

NOTE, I'm 67 and have been reloading for over 47 years and have only once needed to lap the top of a shell holder. And the vast majority of resizing dies will push the case shoulder more than needed if the die is adjusted per the instructions. And the Redding competition shell holders are designed for .002 to .010 "LESS" shoulder bump than a standard .125 shell holder.
​

What ever that long post said is wrong. They push the case farther into the die. I don't need pics or diagrams, I have the set for three different case head sizes and they work. If you can't fathom that, I don't care. There is even a great video showing this method. Not sure what else you need to explain this.
And by the way, you can line all the shell holders up and physically see the difference in floor height. I would post pics, but I'm not that motivated to convince you. Several of us use them and they work as described, that's what the op should be considering.

 

[bigedp51]

What ever that long post said is wrong. They push the case farther into the die. I don't need pics or diagrams, I have the set for three different case head sizes and they work. If you can't fathom that, I don't care. There is even a great video showing this method. Not sure what else you need to explain this.

gohring3006

You do not know what you are talking about, and before shooting your mouth off again and adding nothing but confusion do the following. Measure a standard shell holder and a competition shell holder and then tell us which shell holder is shorter.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
http://www.redding-reloading.com/te...a-custom-die-with-a-simple-shellholder-change
Create A "Custom Die" With A Simple Shellholder Change!
To maximize case life and the accuracy potential of your reloads, it's desirable to size fired cases the minimum amount that allows loaded cartridges to chamber freely.
Most hunters and many other shooters seeking smooth chambering reloads, full length size their cases each time. Since the interior dimensions of sizing dies are determined by the manufacturer, adjusting the shoulder setback is the only control a reloader has over how much a fired case is sized.

In the past, sizing die adjustment has been made through the trial and error method of rotating the die body in the reloading press. While acceptable results can be obtained using this method, precise adjustments are difficult at best.

Using this method, firm contact with the shellholder was not always possible. As a result, irregularities in brass hardness and thickness, as well as the uniformity and quantity of case lube affected shoulder setback. The resulting headspace variations created can adversely affect accuracy due to non-uniform primer/powder ignition. "Squaring" the die in the press is also precluded with this method of die adjustment.

To provide desirable shellholder-to-die contact during sizing, without excessively setting the case shoulder back, Redding now offers shellholders that are in increments of .002" thicker than the industry standard. The nominal thickness for industry standard shellholders is .125". (See dimension X on the shellholder diagram.) Our new Competition Shellholder Set includes five shellholders that are thicker than this in increments of .002". Therefore, the set includes shellholders that are marked +.002, +.004, +.006, +.008 and +.010, which is the amount the shellholder will decrease case to chamber headspace.

To select the proper shellholder for your particular firearm's chamber, start with the shellholder marked +.010. The shellholder should be adjusted to make firm contact with the bottom of the sizing die during the case sizing operation. Resize a case and try it (unprimed and empty) in the chamber of your firearm. If the empty case does not chamber or chambers with difficulty, switch to the shellholder marked +.008 and repeat the process. Stop at the shellholder that allows the firearm's action to close freely. Your cases are now being sized properly to fit your chamber with a minimum amount of headspace.

 

[gohring3006]

gohring3006

You do not know what you are talking about, and before shooting your mouth off again and adding nothing but confusion do the following. Measure a standard shell holder and a competition shell holder and then tell us which shell holder is shorter.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
http://www.redding-reloading.com/te...a-custom-die-with-a-simple-shellholder-change
Create A "Custom Die" With A Simple Shellholder Change!
To maximize case life and the accuracy potential of your reloads, it's desirable to size fired cases the minimum amount that allows loaded cartridges to chamber freely.
Most hunters and many other shooters seeking smooth chambering reloads, full length size their cases each time. Since the interior dimensions of sizing dies are determined by the manufacturer, adjusting the shoulder setback is the only control a reloader has over how much a fired case is sized.

In the past, sizing die adjustment has been made through the trial and error method of rotating the die body in the reloading press. While acceptable results can be obtained using this method, precise adjustments are difficult at best.

Using this method, firm contact with the shellholder was not always possible. As a result, irregularities in brass hardness and thickness, as well as the uniformity and quantity of case lube affected shoulder setback. The resulting headspace variations created can adversely affect accuracy due to non-uniform primer/powder ignition. "Squaring" the die in the press is also precluded with this method of die adjustment.

To provide desirable shellholder-to-die contact during sizing, without excessively setting the case shoulder back, Redding now offers shellholders that are in increments of .002" thicker than the industry standard. The nominal thickness for industry standard shellholders is .125". (See dimension X on the shellholder diagram.) Our new Competition Shellholder Set includes five shellholders that are thicker than this in increments of .002". Therefore, the set includes shellholders that are marked +.002, +.004, +.006, +.008 and +.010, which is the amount the shellholder will decrease case to chamber headspace.

To select the proper shellholder for your particular firearm's chamber, start with the shellholder marked +.010. The shellholder should be adjusted to make firm contact with the bottom of the sizing die during the case sizing operation. Resize a case and try it (unprimed and empty) in the chamber of your firearm. If the empty case does not chamber or chambers with difficulty, switch to the shellholder marked +.008 and repeat the process. Stop at the shellholder that allows the firearm's action to close freely. Your cases are now being sized properly to fit your chamber with a minimum amount of headspace.

You're wasting you time trying to convince me, that Jeff, me and several other people are wrong. I don't even read your post anymore. Your head is so swelled you won't ever be convinced. It really doesn't matter to me what your thoughts are on it, I'm trying to help the OP. Dusty gave him some good advice, you may have to, but again I quit reading all your long winded post. They offer nothing for me.

 

[bigedp51]

You're wasting you time trying to convince me, that Jeff, me and several other people are wrong.

Really, then why did the person in the video start with the +.010 competition shell holder and work downward. He went from the +.010 to +.008 to +.006 and stopped at the +.004 shell holder.

What you can't through your head is if the standard .125 shell holder had been used the shoulder would have been bumped back .004 "MORE" than the +.004 competition shell holder.

The competition shell holders do "NOT" push the case as far into the die as the standard shell holder. These shell holders are not marked -.010 (minus) they are marked a +.010 meaning it is .135 in height and not .125 and push the case .010 less into the die.

And if you had a vernier caliper and simply measured a standard and competition shell holder you would realize just how wrong you are.

 

[gohring3006]

Really, then why did the person in the video start with the +.010 competition shell holder and work downward. He went from the +.010 to +.008 to +.006 and stopped at the +.004 shell holder.

What you can't through your head is if the standard .125 shell holder had been used the shoulder would have been bumped back .004 "MORE" than the +.004 competition shell holder.

The competition shell holders do "NOT" push the case as far into the die as the standard shell holder. These shell holders are not marked -.010 (minus) they are marked a +.010 meaning it is .135 in height and not .125 and push the case .010 less into the die.

And if you had a vernier caliper and simply measured a standard and competition shell holder you would realize just how wrong you are.

What ever you just said, looks like it took some time, and I bet you feel good about it.
I don't read your post.

 

[bigedp51]

What ever you just said, looks like it took some time, and I bet you feel good about it.
I don't read your post.

Then don't read and just look at the pictures.

Below a standard shell holder is .125 between dimension X

And the +.010 Redding competition shell holder is .135, meaning it pushes the case .010 "LESS" into the die. Meaning the +.010 shell holder is .010 taller between dimension X

And now the forum knows who takes their shoes off to do math and still gets it all wrong. And they also know who doesn't know what they are talking about when it comes to shell holders.

NOTE, Headspace is also the distance between your ears and your ability to use this space.

 

[NEMTHunter]

Really, then why did the person in the video start with the +.010 competition shell holder and work downward. He went from the +.010 to +.008 to +.006 and stopped at the +.004 shell holder.

What you can't through your head is if the standard .125 shell holder had been used the shoulder would have been bumped back .004 "MORE" than the +.004 competition shell holder.

The competition shell holders do "NOT" push the case as far into the die as the standard shell holder. These shell holders are not marked -.010 (minus) they are marked a +.010 meaning it is .135 in height and not .125 and push the case .010 less into the die.

And if you had a vernier caliper and simply measured a standard and competition shell holder you would realize just how wrong you are.

What your trying to say is the top of the shell holder that redding make is a different height then standard?

 

[Rich Coyle]

I bought some shell holders and they were marked -2,2-4,-6,-8, etc. They definitely pushed the shoulder back; shortening the headspace.

 

[NEMTHunter]

Then don't read and just look at the pictures.

Below a standard shell holder is .125 between dimension X

And the +.010 Redding competition shell holder is .135, meaning it pushes the case .010 "LESS" into the die. Meaning the +.010 shell holder is .010 taller between dimension X

And now the forum knows who takes their shoes off to do math and still gets it all wrong. And they also know who doesn't know what they are talking about when it comes to shell holders.

NOTE, Headspace is also the distance between your ears and your ability to use this space.

And again the same question?

 

[bigedp51]

What your trying to say is the top of the shell holder that redding make is a different height then standard?

Actually the deck of the shell holder the case rest on is lowered in .002 increments and this increases dimension X. Before the Redding competition shell holders you used feeler gauges to raise the die and decrease the amount of shoulder bump.

Now you just change the shell holder for the desired amount of shoulder bump and never touch the die.

 

[bigedp51]

I bought some shell holders and they were marked -2,2-4,-6,-8, etc. They definitely pushed the shoulder back; shortening the headspace.

So tell us who makes these - (minus) shell holders and the world can stop lapping the top of shell holders or machining off the base of the die. Meaning I have never seen a - (minus) shell holder or have I ever heard anyone but you talking about them.