Gel Test Data part 2

[RockyMtnMT]

For some reason you can never have a normal conversation and try to understand anyone else's opinion. I understand your point. I'm out.

Ooops! I think he was just trying to say, "That is what I was trying to say". I don't think he meant anything else.

 

[adam32+P]

Weatherby loads ammo now right? Maybe grab some off the shelf ammo and test it out, factory speeds out of all the bullets.

 

[tankgijohn72]

I've been reading some stuff on how it's not the BC that really determines the wind, but more of the weight. Similar weight bullets will drift similarly as long as the velocity is in the same ball park. Kinda goes against everything we've been taught in long range shooting. I plan to fo some testing on this myself and see the results. Definitely some fascinating stuff

What stuff are you reading? Curious, not trying to be argumentative. MV and BC determine the time of flight. Longer time of flight will have more wind drift. If you had a 200 gr 30 call vld bullet and a 200 gr 30 cal round nose, or (flat nose for arguments sake) are you saying you will have the same wind drift at longer ranges? I don't buy it.

 

[74honker]

Doesn't matter what you do, there will always be endless variables and some that will try to poke holes in the data. So if Steve takes this 300rum and loads full house (safe) load in the 215 and does the same with his 214 and if the Hammer gets to higher velocity (which seems to ALWAYS be the case) so be it. Would that then answer the question? If the Hammer gets more speed it's over?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Weatherby loads ammo now right? Maybe grab some off the shelf ammo and test it out, factory speeds out of all the bullets.

Hmmm. It would be easy to do short range gel testing. Long range gel test would become more challenging. Long range drop and drift testing would be fine if accuracy is good enough. Is there a problem with developing loads for each bullet in a common rifle?

 

[74honker]

Steve, is the range problem a local for you issue to get long distance? I might know a spot to get WAY out there but it would require you to drive a long ways lol.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Steve, is the range problem a local for you issue to get long distance? I might know a spot to get WAY out there but it would require you to drive a long ways lol.

Yes a local issue. I also don't want to make a day of driving to shoot far! After some discussion today we may have a spot that we can get 900y and 1100y and be able to drive to the target. Only an hr or so drive one way. Still completely gobbles half a day.

 

[74honker]

Yes a local issue. I also don't want to make a day of driving to shoot far! After some discussion today we may have a spot that we can get 900y and 1100y and be able to drive to the target. Only an hr or so drive one way. Still completely gobbles half a day.

Gotcha. Sounds like that would be a great setup. My range is 100yd walk from house and it still takes half a day.....at least lol.

 

[HARPERC]

My basic feeling is the 214 HH is pretty specialized, meaning a rifle built around it would be needed to get full advantage. I think a production rifle was a big element in the test.

I almost never see it mentioned, this thread is the first I've seen in awhile it comes up. Maybe Steve can mention how it sells comparatively.

Anybody following this thread using the 214 HH?

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

What stuff are you reading? Curious, not trying to be argumentative. MV and BC determine the time of flight. Longer time of flight will have more wind drift. If you had a 200 gr 30 call vld bullet and a 200 gr 30 cal round nose, or (flat nose for arguments sake) are you saying you will have the same wind drift at longer ranges? I don't buy it.

I would agree with this statement. I've just read from a couple reputable sources that you can't always determine wind drift on bc alone. This is what I plan on testing

 

[ButterBean]

For some reason you can never have a normal conversation and try to understand anyone else's opinion. I understand your point. I'm out

I understand your opinion and I'm try not to be rude but it makes no sense at all limiting a Hammers velocity to a Berger's velocity of the same weight, it defeats the whole purpose of shooting Hammers

 

[ButterBean]

Ooops! I think he was just trying to say, "That is what I was trying to say". I don't think he meant anything else.

ShoNuff

 

[fordy]

Lets talk about the real numbers here and define the goal or outcome of this exercise.
As was stated above it appears that the goal is to produce a better bullet. So lets define a "better"
bullet. One that reaches the target or in this case the animal and kills said animal the quickest. This is not a debate about pure target bullets designed to do nothing but punch holes in paper.

As a disclaimer I have never met Steve from Hammer bullets nor have I ever fired one of his bullets.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets but have never shot the 30 cal 215 Hyb.
As I have read over the years most people buying bullets have been conditioned to believe that BC trumps all other characteristics of a bullets performance. If I understand Steve ,and I am not putting words in his mouth, It is his goal to produce a better terminally performing bullet that will still fly straight and true. Since we all know that their is no free lunch lets see how 197 Hammers vs the 215 Hybrids perform by the numbers. I am under no illusions here we will not solve this debate here but perhaps we can add a little understanding. I have read over and over here on LRH that Hammers are great but they are not long range bullets. That their low BC limits their use at long range. At this point it becomes necessary to define long range. For the purposes of this post we will define LR as 600 to 1000 yds. Lets also understand that the vast majority of game is killed at much shorter ranges I would estimate 98% and that is just a guess. But everyone wants to run with the big boys and so they base their purchasing decisions on what infomation they gather from advertising and personal experiences such as this form. We and I include myself often buy a bullet based on the Advertised BC and if that number is lower than the other bullets we are comparing to, we dismiss the lower in favor of the higher BC.
Now the the numbers. All info is based on the advertised specs from the Manufactures web site.
The 199 Hammer weighs 197 grs the 215 Berger is at 215 grs. That is a difference of 18grs or the Hammer is 8.4% lighter. The stated length of the Hammer is 1.625 and the Berger is 1.598 or a difference of .027 which means the Hammer is longer by 1.7% and Last the BC of the Hammer is stated as G7 .299 and the Berger is stated as .354 which is a difference of .055 and means that the Berger has a 15.6% advantage. These numbers are telling. As I read this form it is like a lot of folks are arguing that the Hammers have no BC or that it is in the gutter.
Steve is arguing that is simply not true. Yes it is lower by a little but it also goes faster. At some point the higher BC will out run the lower BC even if it is by .001 but where is that 2-3 miles? So does the BC matter yes. Should we be purchasing our hunting bullets solely based on BC my answer NO. Steve has preached that twist rate has a lot to do with terminal performance. Not the minimal twist rate for true flight but twist rate for good straight penetration in flesh and bone. my personal experience has found this to be true even with the cup and core bullets that I have been using. When I went to faster twist rates my bullet performance went up accordingly.
Steve set out to produce a better bullet. We also are conditioned to believe that heavy for caliber is the only way to go. Steve is challenging that theory. Has he produced a better bullet for hunting? Yes he has and he is still trying to improve on it. My son just had a .277 145 gr bullet fail on a good hit at 145 yds on a big Whitetail buck last Monday. Tuesday he ordered a box of Hammers. I will be switching all my hunting rifles to Hammers before the 2023 season starts.

Gday
This is the best post I've read with the utmost respect to others

Terminal preformance is & will always be number 1 in my world & pill consistency across various resistances/angles that show up in the field is a big part of this & to me only one brand here does that well the other has proven to be wanting from time to time

Apples & oranges mmm I'm off for some fruit salad as to me , mix it all up & see what combo you like as that's what you'll eat
Yep a little like our rifles but the fur calculator eats everything

Cheers

 

[GLTaylor]

X2 on both above. Very good!