Fluted Bartlein vs Proof Research sendero contours

[RockyMtnMT]

If the barrel is frozen shouldn't it feel warmer at the carbon because it is transferring the warm air to the cold barrel?

Steve

 

[Pdvdh]

Well the CF should be warmer to the touch if it transfers heat from the hand to the barrel at a slower rate than the steel shank transfers heat from the hand.

You might be referring to osmosis. Whatever that is. Every now and then when asked why something is the way it is, I answer osmosis. Neither I nor the other party really have any deep understanding of what that means or how it applies to the scenario at hand. And the conversation commonly ends abruptly, with smiles.

I didn't dream that one up though. A crusty looking road grader operater was attempting to grade the gravel parking lot around our work office to improve surface drainage. It was visually apparent to us that the slope he was putting on the ground wasn't going to get the water to the intended location. A co-worker finally mustered up the courage to ask the grader operator how the grading was going to work. The backhoe operator was silent for several seconds as he purveyed his grading work. He then replied osmosis, without so much as any hint of a smile. Back to grading he went. Back into the office we went, laughing along our way.

 

[Browning300]

5RWill. in addition to your freezer feel test. if you have a little mercury thermometer you could slid it into the bore of the barrel and plug the ends before you put it in the freezer, give it a couple minutes an see how the temps compare between barrels. I'm very interested to hear your findings.

 

[bbraden]

I've got a Proof CF 18" on my 6.5 Creedmoor LR308 build. In my experience the CF barrel gets hot to the touch very quickly. I shoot 5 shot groups and then allow to cool and I haven't noticed any stringing yet. Longest string is about 4 groups of 5 with 3-4 minutes of cooling in between. Although the barrel gets real hot I haven't seen a POI shift. Best group so far is a sub .4" 5 shot group with factory Hornady match ammo and I'm really not that good of a shot. I'm sold on the CF barrel and will be buying another Proof before too long. I do believe (in MY opinion) that it will outshoot a steel barrel of similar weight.

 

[bbckfh]

What would you do? Building a backpacking hunting rifle/general long range but ok with it not being CRAZY light since I'd rather pack a little weight than a mule that's going to beat me up.

26 inch barrel

I'm thinking a fluted bartlein sendero contour is going to run around 3.8-4 pounds since they list a non fluted as 4.5

Proof barrel around 3 pounds?
Appears proof sendero will be a little thicker since it's more of an m24 actual size

If anyone has experience with Hardy barrels seem to be same price as Proof.

Manners eh1a will be 3 pounds
Axiom action

It sure seems as if this thread drifted a bit... Derailed by the discussion of the thermal characteristics of carbon barrels.

Sounds like the original question was about weight for a back country hunting rifle, which implies low-round-count cold-bore accuracy and portability... Very different from the thermal management characteristics in a PRS or tactical rifle.

I'm going to echo the original question with my own scenario:

I want to build a light rifle for hunting. I have target rifles; this won't be that.

I'm thinking Manners EH3, Axiom/Tempest/Nucleus, Timney or Triggertech, likely with an ADL bottom vs an APA DBM setup, and a 24" tube.

My goal is sub-7-lbs (without optic).

I'll hunt suppressed, so shorter provides maneuverability and lighter weight. Balancing that with velocity loss if I go too short (<22"?).

So for me the argument is a fluted Bartlein 3/3b (or equivalent from Rock, Kreiger, etc.) vs a Proof Sendero Light. The former is maybe 3.25 lbs (3.5-4.5 lbs less the mass from the fluting), the latter roughly 2.7 lbs, so functionally a half-pound weight savings. And more importantly, less POI shift with mounting/dismounting of the 11oz suppressor.

Seems like this might be the case where the argument is most in favor of the carbon barrel? (This distinctly different from a rapid-fire high-round-count competition rig where barrels get replaced at least annually.)

And here the couple-hundred-dollar difference becomes more negligible since the round count will stretch out the intervals between barrel replacement, decreasing that rotating cost.

So, I tend to learn to carbon, but I love my 6.5cm with its 20" Bartlein for northwoods deer hunting, so I'm really not biased nor trying to justify/rationalize.

What think y'all?

 

[RockyMtnMT]

It sure seems as if this thread drifted a bit... Derailed by the discussion of the thermal characteristics of carbon barrels.

Sounds like the original question was about weight for a back country hunting rifle, which implies low-round-count cold-bore accuracy and portability... Very different from the thermal management characteristics in a PRS or tactical rifle.

I'm going to echo the original question with my own scenario:

I want to build a light rifle for hunting. I have target rifles; this won't be that.

I'm thinking Manners EH3, Axiom/Tempest/Nucleus, Timney or Triggertech, likely with an ADL bottom vs an APA DBM setup, and a 24" tube.

My goal is sub-7-lbs (without optic).

I'll hunt suppressed, so shorter provides maneuverability and lighter weight. Balancing that with velocity loss if I go too short (<22"?).

So for me the argument is a fluted Bartlein 3/3b (or equivalent from Rock, Kreiger, etc.) vs a Proof Sendero Light. The former is maybe 3.25 lbs (3.5-4.5 lbs less the mass from the fluting), the latter roughly 2.7 lbs, so functionally a half-pound weight savings. And more importantly, less POI shift with mounting/dismounting of the 11oz suppressor.

Seems like this might be the case where the argument is most in favor of the carbon barrel? (This distinctly different from a rapid-fire high-round-count competition rig where barrels get replaced at least annually.)

And here the couple-hundred-dollar difference becomes more negligible since the round count will stretch out the intervals between barrel replacement, decreasing that rotating cost.

So, I tend to learn to carbon, but I love my 6.5cm with its 20" Bartlein for northwoods deer hunting, so I'm really not biased nor trying to justify/rationalize.

What think y'all?

My thinking as well. Shot a Proof barrel a week ago chambered in 338 Lap imp. Paid close attention to the heat of the barrel. The chamber end or the muzzle never warmed. The center of the barrel would show a little bit of heat. We never shot more than a three shoot string, so nothing tough on the barrel. I would think that if the carbon was insulating the barrel we would have been able to feel the ends of the barrel get hot as that would be the only way for the heat to transfer though the steel. So I am leaning toward the thought that the carbon is transferring heat directly through it as it was the only place we felt a temp rise.

Steve

 

[FURMAN]

It sure seems as if this thread drifted a bit... Derailed by the discussion of the thermal characteristics of carbon barrels.

Sounds like the original question was about weight for a back country hunting rifle, which implies low-round-count cold-bore accuracy and portability... Very different from the thermal management characteristics in a PRS or tactical rifle.

I'm going to echo the original question with my own scenario:

I want to build a light rifle for hunting. I have target rifles; this won't be that.

I'm thinking Manners EH3, Axiom/Tempest/Nucleus, Timney or Triggertech, likely with an ADL bottom vs an APA DBM setup, and a 24" tube.

My goal is sub-7-lbs (without optic).

I'll hunt suppressed, so shorter provides maneuverability and lighter weight. Balancing that with velocity loss if I go too short (<22"?).

So for me the argument is a fluted Bartlein 3/3b (or equivalent from Rock, Kreiger, etc.) vs a Proof Sendero Light. The former is maybe 3.25 lbs (3.5-4.5 lbs less the mass from the fluting), the latter roughly 2.7 lbs, so functionally a half-pound weight savings. And more importantly, less POI shift with mounting/dismounting of the 11oz suppressor.

Seems like this might be the case where the argument is most in favor of the carbon barrel? (This distinctly different from a rapid-fire high-round-count competition rig where barrels get replaced at least annually.)

And here the couple-hundred-dollar difference becomes more negligible since the round count will stretch out the intervals between barrel replacement, decreasing that rotating cost.

So, I tend to learn to carbon, but I love my 6.5cm with its 20" Bartlein for northwoods deer hunting, so I'm really not biased nor trying to justify/rationalize.

What think y'all?

As I am pretty sure I stated earlier in the thread. I built a 28# Bartlein 3B, Pierce titanium in a Manners EH1 that weighed 7lbs 5oz. I had a steal action nearly identical with a CA carbon that weighed 6lbs 10oz. I do not see steal barrels in the future for my hunting rigs.

 

[Deleted member 103481]

Yes the thread derailed a bit. I think the carbon sound really good for your situation.

My situation is a little different in that I wanted everything, the backcountry suppressed hunting rig and the competition rig.

After speaking with Joel Russo a bit about it... I decided why not both? And switched from a Curtis axiom to a Vector preorder so I can swap barrels and have a carbon for the woods and a big heavy for competition and repeated firings when I dip my toes in that.

 

[lancetkenyon]

For a hunting rifle....
Difference in weight between a Proof Sendero Light and Bartlein #3/3b fluted is negligible. Stiffness goes to Proof by a slight margin. So adding a can would be better served by the Proof. Even going to the Proof Sendero would stiffen it up more, but only adding a few ounces. Which you can shave elsewhere.

I just finished load development of a rifle that weighed 10lbs 9oz in this form:
Defiance Deviant SA w. 20MOA Pic rail
24" Proof Sendero 1:8" in 6.5CM
Manners EH5A
Hawkins DBM metal
AI mag
Timney CE
Swaro X5 3.5-18×50

Lose a full pound with a non-adjustable EH3.
If you go with a TI action, you can lose another 8-12oz.
Change to a lighter scope and lose 6-10oz or more

Easily gets you sub 9lbs hunting weight with scope.

 

[FURMAN]

For a hunting rifle....
Difference in weight between a Proof Sendero Light and Bartlein #3/3b fluted is negligible. Stiffness goes to Proof by a slight margin. So adding a can would be better served by the Proof. Even going to the Proof Sendero would stiffen it up more, but only adding a few ounces. Which you can shave elsewhere.

I just finished load development of a rifle that weighed 10lbs 9oz in this form:
Defiance Deviant SA w. 20MOA Pic rail
24" Proof Sendero 1:8" in 6.5CM
Manners EH5A
Hawkins DBM metal
AI mag
Timney CE
Swaro X5 3.5-18×50

Lose a full pound with a non-adjustable EH3.
If you go with a TI action, you can lose another 8-12oz.
Change to a lighter scope and lose 6-10oz or more

Easily gets you sub 9lbs hunting weight with scope.

Where did you get your weights? I have owned all of the components you mention and they do not support what you typed. My near Identical rifles one with a 3b fluted one with a CA carbon were about 11 oz different. My titanium Pierce was 1-2 oz less than the Chrome Moly.

 

[lancetkenyon]

Defiance Deviant SA 35oz w. Bolt
Pierce TI SA 19oz w. Bolt
Lone Peak Fuzion TI SA 23oz w. Steel bolt (per LPA-waiting for it to come in to confirm)

EH1/EH2/EH3 1lb 10oz to 1lb 11oz
EH5A 2lbs 13oz
PRS2 3lbs 1oz

 

[Elk Hunter 338]

In my opinion (And ive seen a bunch of them) if you cant pack an extra pound of rifle ie=more stability for LR shooting if needed, then maybe a little better physical training is needed!! or take an extra pound of worthless crap outta your pack that you never use, like everyone does!!! LOL
in all seriousness the difference between proofs and a lighter steel barrel is merely ounces!!! the benefits will go to the proof for
A. the muzzle diameter aids in a way bigger brake for more reduces recoil without looking like a growth on the end of the barrel
B. a little more stiffness than a small dia steel ( although i have tested both and with the longer barrels steel and carbon the carbon has more POI shift than the steel when adding a suppressor such as ultra 9 TBAC or Ultra338 TBAC
C. the carbon balances basically dead center of any rig long or short where as the steel is just smidge forward, not a huge deal to me but most will notice it a little
D. Basically run what you want and be happy. the carbons look sweet I RUN BOTH and there is no CONCLUSIVE ACTUAL TESTED ON BARRELS scientific data that concludes whether or not the thermal properties reduce heat faster blah blah blah as this has derailed before!
E. they wear out about the same rate and accuracy is identical in most cases for hunting rifle uses.

 

[Pdvdh]

Amusing that the CF barrels now heat up very quickly. Amazing in fact, when all other Posts on the subject in other threads (and even in this Thread) spoke otherwise until the obvious was brought out. That cool to the touch barrels demonstrate the opposite of high heat conductance. Yes, amazing.

All of my steel barrels heat fastest away from the chamber and muzzle ends. Does that mean the steel transmits the heat faster in the middle of the barrel compared to the ends?

Never heard anything back on the freezer testing...

 

[Pdvdh]

... there is no scientific data that concludes whether or not the thermal properties reduce heat faster blah blah blah ...

You'd have to understand science, no? "blah blah blah" - now that's real science. I'm convinced now.