Energy or bullet diameter most important?

however energy actually has a lot to do with terminal performance. It is nothing more or less than potential to do work
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.
 
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.
So the only real problem here is that bullet design has no bearing. Construction and design srill plays a role at 10 feet. If both are armor piercing the 124 will have more shock due to velocity.
 
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.

On the small stuff (coyote and perhaps deer/antelope) the light fast bullet will probably have a greater immediate response. For any of the larger stuff, the light bullet will stay on the shelf at the gun store.

Upon further reflection…..the heavy bullet will still do an admirable/very satisfying job on the small stuff as well. While only a similar scenario, several years ago while on a Pronghorn hunt, I shot a coyote at around 280 yards with a 250 grain TTSX from my .375 AI. It killed the coyote with authority. Perhaps the visual effects may have been a bit more spectacular with a lighter, faster bullet….but, I dare say that it wouldn't have been any "deader"! memtb

Addendum: As an update, I will no longer be using light bullets in my AI, as I finally procured some 270 grain LRX's! I will be very upset if they fail to kill coyotes with proper bullet placement! 😉 memtb
 
That's it, I'm getting a 50 something or maybe just a Cheytac configuration, and hunting yotes and wolves. No more sissy little small diameter and light bullets, go big or stay home because …. Science is too confusing.
 
That's it, I'm getting a 50 something or maybe just a Cheytac configuration, and hunting yotes and wolves. No more sissy little small diameter and light bullets, go big or stay home because …. Science is too confusing.

If you keep the hunting rifle total weight reasonable…..simplify your life and pick one cartridge for all of your hunting.

Contrary to popular belief …..large diameter bullets can and will effectively kill small game! Really hard to fathom isn't it! 😉 memtb
 
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.
This one is still hard to determine. Define performed exactly the same.
 
If the 215 acted the identically same as the 124 when it entered, the 124 will kill faster every time due to the extra bubble/liquid displacement velocity/ juju voodoo they do so well.

But if I'm shootin T. rex, I may wanna go a little heavier than the 124.

I used those 2 bullet weights and speed examples,because I have those 2 exact loads.
 
Last edited:
If both bullets are frangible there is a good chance they both fail. The advantage goes to the heavier bullet because it has a better chance of maintaining enough weight to penetrate far enough to be lethal.

If both bullets have the ability to retain 60% of their weight without mashing into a glob, then it becomes tough to determine which bullet had the advantage. There is a good chance that the lighter bullet may out penetrate the heavier bullet due to the amount of time it takes for the full definition. The lighter bullet will do so more quickly losing less of it's impact velocity creating the bubble effect allowing the bullet to penetrate very deeply. The heavier bullet has the advantage of larger material shed causing potentially more collateral damage than the smaller bullet. On paper the heavier retained shank would carry better momentum resulting in deeper penetration. This doesn't always play out in live targets. @fordy can attest to the phenomenon of the lighter very high velocity bullet penetrating farther than it should be able to on water buffalo. A 30 cal 124g bullet is not supposed to be able to deform and penetrate to the far side of a water buffalo but it will. Repeatably.
 
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.

Having personal choices is a beauty.

124 HH 4200 FPS.jpg


215 3200 FPS.jpg
 
Yessir. The momentum of the 124 is way overkill for deer/antelope. They pass through these small southern deer goin from from the rooter to the pooter.

I've not shot any elk withem yet.
Run those numbers to 1000Y and see where 1500 FT-LBS falls.

- 124: 700 yards = 1588 FT-LBS

- 215: 1300 yards = 1542 FT-LBS

124 HH 4200 FPS 1300Y.jpg


215 3200 FPS to 1300Y.jpg


Hopefully, somebody will double checks my numbers.
 
Last edited:
Think on this.
Here's two 30 cal projos with practically the same energy at the muzzle.

124 grain at a mv of 4200 fps.
215 grain at a mv of 3200 fps.

IF we shot an animal at a distance of 10 feet, and IF both projos performed exactly the same when they entered said animal, which on would kill better/faster?
Let's give this thought to different animals also.
Coyote
Deer/antelope
Elk
Moose/bear
T-Rex.
This is going to be partly in response to this given scenario I'm replying to, and partly in response to the original post itself. So it's not a response aimed at anyone in particular.

So comparing the 124gr Hammer to the 215gr Berger, mass-wise, we're talking a difference of .187 vs .324, in the form of sectional density. This helps us compare their mass more proportionally. We're also talking about a huge difference in construction and mechanics of how they work.

From what I've seen and experienced so far, bullets like Hammer varieties, Apex Outdoors Afterburners, LeHigh Defense Controlled Chaos, Cutting Edge varieties, etc are all frangible in design, due to the fact they are purposely designed to shed weight and have the entire ogive section come apart after impact and shed away from the rest of the projectile.

So with that said, they still should have a decent amount of starting mass since they're designed to shed a lot of weight, just like a soft/frangible lead core bullet. They need the retained mass in order to retain momentum. That will ensure they still produce adequate hydraulic force as they continue penetrating. If they lose too much momentum, and/or not a wide enough surface area, penciling will still occur because the amount of hydraulic force produced will greatly reduce. The lower amount of surface area though tends to allow them to not completely stop forward momentum, compared to a mushroomed lead core with a wider surface area.

A soft/frangible lead core bullet, such as a Berger, with plenty of mass will still shed a lot of weight, but it'll also still end up more mushroomed than those listed monos. So that helps still produce wide wounding from hydraulic force even if they lose a lot of momentum as a result.

The following pictures give a basic look at some numbers regarding momentum and using the scenario already given with the 124gr Hammer at a MV of 4200fps and the 215gr Berger at a MV of 3200fps. The figures on amount of mass lost and amount of velocity lost is an estimation based on typical or advertised results, but obviously isn't a guarantee since getting those actual numbers will be pretty impossible to obtain. So take this for whatever it may be worth. Maybe it's worth nothing to you, and I'm fine with that. I feel it's pretty representative though to the real world. Also, the percentage of mass lost and velocity lost is in reference to after impact and after the main shedding of weight has occurred. The mass lost is the same for the Hammer at close and longer range because it seems that amount stays pretty consistent as long as the petals all completely separate. The Berger will vary based on impact velocity and impact resistance and that's why it's different. It'll obviously lose more mass with higher impact velocities and more resistance, hence why the numbers are what they are.

IMG_7450.jpeg



IMG_7451.jpeg



IMG_7452.jpeg



So if you look at simple cause and effect, and action/reaction, certain selling points with certain petal-shedding monos can be contradictory.

How can a bullet with less momentum and less mass penetrate completely, yet also produce the same or more hydraulic force (amount of wounding)? A huge amount of hydraulic force will create an opposing force to forward momentum. This is why even with more momentum a bullet like a Berger often doesn't exit. It sheds weight, but also still continues to mushroom. The fact that it still has more momentum but doesn't exit, yet retains a lot of mass, shows us it produced a ton of hydraulic force and that arrested the forward momentum rapidly.

***Also, in regards to the subject of energy specifically, the whole "bubble" terminology seems to be misunderstood. From my summation, it's a made up term for what the bullet does as it enters and then travels through an animal. The same people that say energy dump and energy transfer isn't real use this term, so I've seen.

In reality, it is indeed energy transfer and hydraulic force and hydrostatic shock. The confusion of these terms seems to also come in part by things like that "Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories" paper, which there's already been a discussion on about its legitimacy and the background of the writer and no one seems to really know who this person really is and their actual experience, nor have I seen anyone figure out how to contact this person. So a separate reality and terminology has been created and in my opinion, it doesn't lineup with actual reality and actual science, at least not completely and as stated.

The term "bubble" has been used to ultimately refer to the huge rise in pressure inside the chest cavity from the bullet expanding, then coming apart, and the extreme velocity itself.

What that actually is though is energy transfer and hydraulic force being produced as a result. Hydraulic force will literally apply pressure against what it is being exerted upon, therefore the outward pressure within the chest cavity will increase and cause the whole ribcage to expand. We see the same sort of thing with gel, as the whole block expands and shape-shifts upon impact. High speed camera footage shows us the hydraulic force and energy transfer much clearer. This is shown well in post #107. This effect, specifically the amount of energy transferred and hydraulic force produced, is highly dependent upon bullet construction and how the bullet behaves upon impact. Not all perform the same and produce the same results.

Onto another point: using large magnum cartridges and/or large calibers vs short action cartridges and/or smaller calibers. First off, I do use large magnums and will continue to do so because there are practical reasons to do so. I'm not too naive though to think you have to use a magnum, 30cal minimum, and like a 200gr or heavier bullet with around 1500 or so foot pounds of energy, minimum, in order to be most successful. I use a lot of smaller cartridges and smaller calibers too, with the same success rate. Ultimately, the bullet is the hero, not the cartridge or even caliber size.

What cartridge is needed really depends. With certain bullets, certain distances needed, and certain game, sure a big magnum or large caliber might be what you want. But when you start tweaking things like exactly what bullet you're using (and in the right direction), you can still achieve desired results with much smaller cartridges, less powder, lighter bullets, lower recoil, etc. That's because you can create proper wounding and trauma still by using the right bullet. You can still do what is needed with less kinetic energy in the bullet because you're still untimely getting the actual amount of needed energy from the bullet and transferred directly into the wounding. That's what it's all about.

That's why shedding weight with bullets after impact works so well. There just needs to be enough starting mass so that there's also enough retained mass to keep the wounding going all the way through the vitals.

And thanks to the huge demand for high BC bullets nowadays, we have smaller caliber bullets, constructed with thin jackets and no bonding, that have plenty of mass (to get the increase in BC), plus cartridges coming out to get the most out of them with great efficiency.

The only people still having issues are those that do not understand bullet construction and terminal ballistics and are still picking the wrong bullet for the job or wrong combination with a particular cartridge and then placing it in a poor location for the particular scenario presented.

And while I'm talking about it, I've known since LeHigh Defense introduced their copper bullets that shed weight (petals), that that's the way to go with monos in order to truly get the best results in the form of productive energy transfer and hydraulic shock production. They still weren't perfect though and still had other hurdles to get over in order to really get the most from them.

That basic principle design is actually good. The design to shed weight and still have a surface that produces hydraulic force is crucial for best results. It allows for a rapid transfer of energy without losing too much momentum as it still produces hydraulic forces and wide wounding.

What hurdles still remain though are staying competitive with long range capability (low impact velocity performance and ability to retain as much velocity as possible), reliable and consistent expansion and full shedding of the petals without issues caused by necking over, tumbling, or not expanding at all, and cost.

We've seen certain companies do well, and others not so much.
 
I don't disagree with what Steve said in terms of goals etc… however energy actually has a lot to do with terminal performance. It is nothing more or less than potential to do work.
I don't disagree with Lou270 on his post. I especially like the use of the word "POTENTIAL" in this sentence. It gets left out frequently.

I can't deny the math and physics involve in a straight energy calculation.
I can't deny as a high velocity fan, increasing velocity increases energy.

I do believe energy has to be applied to vitals to have meaning to how we're using the word.

On contact energy also is required to alter the bullet to it's final form (work). How much did we just lose?

I find @RockyMtnMT thought that losing the nose (with minimal work), and traversing the vitals at the best possible speeds, is the best way to use energy.

If I googled correctly a 3000 lb car at 60 mph is north of 300,000 ft lbs energy. We can find videos of animals launched in the air, and running away. Perhaps to die later, but recovering animals I've shot remains my goal. Blunt force trauma.

We don't have much thick skinned game here, but we do have angles and placements that require more penetration to reach vitals. In some instances a 220 grain Partition from a .30-06 is a better choice than a 180 grain Partition from a .300 Magnum. Energy not being the highest parameter on my list to pre-evaluate performance "POTENTIAL"

Just me!
 
Top