Elk rifle

[meatyrem]

I think everyone is bringing up excellent points. Very informative. It does boil down to ( what your comfortable with ) and the smaller the caliber the more picky about your shot placment you have to be. This also apply's to bullet construction in relation to shot placment. I have been amazed with those individuals that use say -6mm, 25.06 or .270 or something in that neighborhood. I do not feel that those particular calibers are appropriate ( my opinion only ) for elk or larger, but are used and are effective when used carefully. I will never feel that I am overgunned and I don't think one can be. ( My opinion ) is I feel elk calibers start at .28 or larger. But, that doesn't mean I think that a 7mm-08 is a ( perfect ) elk round, just adequate when the range is kept to say approx. 200yds or less with a premium bullet. The .338 I think is one of the best all-around elk calibers out there, but not everyone is able to shoot it well.

 

[Tulie]

Unfortunately people think that they should be able to achieve bang flops. It simply is not reality. Sometimes it happens, (and it is cool) but it is not the norm.

I know that the original post is asking only about caliber, but key to this discussion is bullet choice. No matter what caliber you choose, it must be coupled with a quality dedicated hunting bullet. If you run without a good bullet you might as well be ****ing into the wind.

I stand in the crowd of a high weight retention bullet that will carry through the target. It must be a bullet that will have consistent frontal deformation. More important than double caliber mushroom is the shape of the deformation. A square frontal area, or flat leading edge will cause the most (largest) permanent wound channel.

Once you have chosen your bullet, then you must limit your effective range to the minimum velocity that the bullet is functional.

Now, with that said, I do not believe that there is such a thing as being over gunned. Bigger is better if you can handle it. My son has shot an elk in each of his first three years of hunting. He is 14 this year, and still carrying the same rifle that he started with at 12. And it is not a .50 BMG. He shoots a 6.5-06 with a high quality, dedicated hunting bullet. All of his elk were taken beyond 300yrds out to 375yrds. All of these elk went less than 20yrds. His first elk at 375yrds was hit in the large shoulder bone on the on side, took out the front of the lungs, went through the big shoulder bone on the off side, and recovered in the meat of the off side shoulder. 82% weight retention, perfect mushroom.

I will just say that you need to put as much or more effort into choosing your bullet as you do into choosing your caliber.

Hope I helped more than adding confusion.

Steve

The underlined and bold text is the key. A 243 will do it with shot placement, premium bullets and short range. Shoot a .22 will do it at even better shot placement and shorter range. That being said, we owe it to ourselves and our game to use as big as we can, place the shot in the right spot and not overextend our equipment or ourselves. WE have to know our limitations. Lots of people talk about the long shot and this and that but a good hunter doesn't generally need that long of a shot on an unwounded animal if they do their part to begin with.

As for me, my elk rifle is a 300 RUM with 180 Nosler Partitions and I have a 7 STW for backup and even a 375 H&H if I choose to use it. A buddy of mine thinks a 7 mag kicks like 3 mules and a 30-06 like two and to him a lighter recoiling rifle would be a lot better. Tough to make the shot with your chin tucked down and your eyes closed anticipating the recoil. This guy is an excellent shot with something he has confidence in and hasn't hurt him. Bottom line, use the biggest you can, place your shot and know your limitations.

 

[meatyrem]

I love the .300rum. The first time I shot one, I grinned, and then shot it sixteen more times in a row! I have one and then decided to get another, for a back up. Those are my elk medicine. But I would not hesitate to use something smaller of the 30.06, .308 any of the 7mm mags will be just fine. But if you can't shoot without flinching or crinching then move down in caliber or power.

 

[Tulie]

I guess the other part of the original question needs to be answered as well. Since the question was about an elk RIFLE not only what comes out of the rifle I'll say to me it would have to be a bolt action, mine are Rem 700 stainless, with a good trigger, synthetic stock (they can take big abuse out there) an excellent scope (I like Zeiss Conquest the best) and a premium bullet that is on the larger size for the caliber with high SD and BC. Then...practice, practice and practice some more from FIELD positions, not the bench.

 

[bigngreen]

I think part of the problem with "the perfect" elk rifle is the fact that elk live in such different terrain.
If I had to always shoot elk in timber I would pack on of two rifles, the first would be a 338 win type shooting a TTSX in a 8 lb ish package with a low power variable scope like a 2.5-10 NXS, the second would be a Marlin 45-70 loaded with 300gr hollow points pushed hard, maybe an optic maybe just open sights.

The stuff I hunt the most is very broken timber and sage brush, by far the most popular amongst guys I know is the 270's a few 243's and a few 30cals only one 7mm, commonly know as the 7 meat mangler Typical elk shooting is from point blank to the 500yrd range, and you always have the possibility for a deer also, generally you load a bonded bullet or TSX or judiciously a Berger, something that won't be to bad on deer but reach the far side on and elk.

For the long range from canyon to canyon or out in the field bottoms all the guys I know that do it hunt with 338 RUM min and you see quite a few Cheytac size stuff. Bullet choice for every one I know is the 300gr SMK with a couple of Rocky MT bullet shooters and now the 300gr Berger is hot!

Bullets have a great influence on chamberings, I do know one guy that shoots a 338 and swears up and down elk are bullet eating monsters but I look at what he shoots out of it and it is a way to heavy Partition going way to slow, ya elk will eat slow moving, barely expanding bullet put behind the shoulder and I've seen quite a few take a mag full of them and move out. I've seen the other end of the spectrum where a guy will swear he needs a bigger cal but he's shooting elk in the shoulder with a 140 gr Ballistic tip in his 7mag, way to fragile of a bullet going way to fast for where they shoot them. At least the elk shot with a 338 will be recoverable, if you have no penetration and just blow up a front shoulder you odds are slim of recovery.

Good bullets shot with in there functional range and placed in the appropriate location for that bullet is all it take to kill elk like a rock star!!

 

[meatyrem]

I think you said it best. Using the heaviest bullet for a given caliber for the high sd and bc. And also the construction of the bullet is a factor too. If your bullet will not crush through some bone on the way to the vitals, then I would say it's not a very suitable bullet for elk.

 

[sp6x6]

I started w/243, then 7mm, then about 20 + yrs. ago I asked my pistol coach , what would be a good dedicated elk rifle. He was a former AK longtime resident and gun nut.He handed me a 340 WM , shot it for 10 yrs., then wimped and put a brake on it. My first 6x6,deer and bear where all DRT, one shot. Now my 15 yr. old son is taken my old friend from me.What am I to do now

 

[Tulie]

I think you said it best. Using the heaviest bullet for a given caliber for the high sd and bc. And also the construction of the bullet is a factor too. If your bullet will not crush through some bone on the way to the vitals, then I would say it's not a very suitable bullet for elk.

A premium bullet is a very large part of the equation. The elk I got this year was hit in the on side behind the shoulder and the bullet went through and hit the large shoulder shocket on the off side. This socket literally exploded and drove shrapnel throughout the entire shoulder. Most of that shoulder was not usable but the elk was still down and out and mine. This was with a Nosler Partition and this is the first head of game I've taken with the Partition.

I've used Barnes in the past and other than that it's been Speer, Hornady, Remington, Winchester and whatever Federal has used in both handloads and factory loads. The Barnes is as if not more so deadly than the Nosler and I'm sure there are others but this bullet's performance was amazing. I've also seen Barnes 30 cal 180 grain bullet performance on 2 different Oryx and they are very deadly as well. Yes, you can step down in performance on the cartridge level IF you use a premium bullet and place it correctly.

Again, know your limitations and the limitations of your equipment. Bottom line.

 

[specweldtom]

I take a lot for granted, such as shot placement and bullet performance, but the .340 Wby would still be my choice for big American game, except the ones that can eat you. LTLR and others like the .338 cal, but sp6x6 specifically likes the .340. May not be for everyone, but it works. I haven't studied recoil very much, but have been shooting a .460 Wby off and on for about 25 yrs. I don't enjoy the recoil, but it probably does give me a different baseline for where excessive recoil starts. I think the thing about the felt recoil of the .340 in a light rifle is recoil velocity more than recoil energy. A good brake takes all the meanness out of one, and as I said earlier, if it's not braked, shoot out of a Lead Sled at the range, and on the hunt you won't notice the recoil (unless the scope bites you). My .340, (yep, I've got a dog in the hunt) has a Holland brake, weighs 9 lbs with a 26" barrel and a Leupold 4 x 12 x 40 scope. With 250gr Nosler Partition factory ammo, it feels about like a .30-06 to me. Small price for bone crushing knock-down power. Screw tracking in heavy cover, particularly at night. If I ever do get a shot at a trophy, I'll pinwheel the shoulder. Blow up their front wheels and vitals, and they won't go anywhere. I've hit deer there, and they get hit so hard, I think they die on the way to the ground. Never had one get up.

"Too much gun" sounds like an oxymoron to me. I've tried to guess how many hogs a 500gr solid out of the .460 could rehab if I could get them lined up.

Good thread, with a lot of experienced hunters weighing in. I'm enjoying it!

Tom

 

[Norsky]

I would have to agree 100% with Long Time Long Ranger, I have seen a lot of elk shot and they are tough critters, some go down easly and a lot of them don't. IMO stack the odds in your favor, I have shot them with 270 win, 30-06, 270 wsm, 300 wsm and my go to Elk Rifle .338 WM I call "Thumper" - The 338 WM with a 225gr Accubond does a number on Elk. Norsky

 

[sp6x6]

Arthurj, My brake on my 340 can me screwed on or off. I leave it on, and now take a different non braked gun for the thick timber, where it bothered me most.I hunt religiously with ear plugs and use them often

 

[LR3]

Last year I asked Pat McGrew who for 26 years has been supervising elk hunting in Vermejo, NM what he recommended for elk. He has seen some 150 - 200 elk collected annually so he has seen what both expert and average shooters are capable of (probably some 5000 elk). He personally uses a 375 H&H but recommended 338s. On questioning 6 other guides who had been there for also for many years, including a veternarian, two thirds felt a 338 was a mininum although 50-60% of hunters who came used 30 and 300s. They all recommended two shots as a minumum, side on shots. Most are shot at under 300 yards. The points already made, and especially LTLR are spot on. The question is how much weight do you want to carry, how do you handle recoil, with or without a brake, will this be morning (more stalking and hiking) or evening shooting (more ambush), and what is your maximum range you are hoping for. IMHO, I would venture to say your should be practicing at least 50% more distance than the distance you would want to shoot at and hit at least 20" targets first time with a cold barrel. Jim Baker the former manager in fact recommended two rifles, one lighter for am stalking and hiking (I use a 30-378 for this with a Kafuri holster) and a 375/408CT/Gibbs 505 for evening ambush long range (heavier and not as fun carrying long distances). Remember the longer the range, the more significant your terminal energy and knockdown power loss.

Here is more detailed link for elk concerning equipment etc : http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/375-6-pointer-636-yds-30-378-technical-48295/

 

[COBrad]

I'll throw in on this. Use the 7mm you are thinking of. You already mentioned you don't care for heavy recoil and can handle the 7 without a brake. You will have all the rifle you ever need for elk. FWIW, I have guided elk hunters in Colorado for over 30 years, outfitted for 9, and am taking over management of another outfit here. My experience has been that the big mags are just fine for killing elk, IF you can handle the recoil... but they are not necessary. I've used a variety of magnums from 7mm to .358 STA on elk. They all killed elk just like they are supposed to, and just like the '06 that I started with 36 years ago did. Elk aren't part of the big 5 and they won't eat you. You don't need something capable of killing elephants or stopping a charging grizzly to cleanly kill elk. Hell, I worked a hunt for grizzly in AK two years ago and the guide felt comfortable with his '06. IMO, the advantage of the magnum for elk comes in its' ability to deliver bullets with a large amount of energy and momentum ( choose which ever you like ) at long ranges, and that includes the 7 mag. I shot a .458 for a year or so, but I'm tired of heavy recoil, so I sold my last magnum and bought a .270 for elk. Now, I would have gone with a 7 mag, but Cooper doesn't yet offer one, and I couldn't find a .280 improved in the Custom Classic. And I feel I'm good to somewhere around 600 yards. Use good bullets and put them where they need to go. Thats what kills elk.

 

[meatyrem]

Well put!