RockyMtnMT
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We have taken several elk, deer, and antelope with the 199gr Hammer Hunter in Browning Hells Canyon 300 rum with the 199gr Hammer Hunter from a bit over 600y and in with great performance.
Bullet Expansion - Hammer Hunter vs HHT
- Thread starter David_h
- Start date
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RockyMtnMT
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My son just took his bull elk with the 182gr Hammer HHT on a hard quartering away moving shot at 250y. Entered center of the paunch on the left side and exited behind the shoulder on the off side catching only the back of the offside lung. Bull made it about 100y and piled up. This was 3' plus of penetration beginning in the paunch full of feed. About as tough as it gets. This was from a factory 10" twist Remington Long Range 300wm running 3300fps.
Shane Lindsey
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2010
- Messages
- 3,366
So a bullet designed, tested, and advertised to function at 1800 FPS is not the mechanism? What else is there?
I'll share an experience with hammers I had last year on a water buffalo in Argentina. I was using a 28 Nosler and 169 HH, I shot the buffalo 2 times in the shoulder and as it ran away the guide told me to shoot it again so I shot as it ran away. The mighty buff went about 50 yards and was dead on it's feet. Upon examination I could see where the shot I took as it was running away skimmed the rear quarter cutting 7" of the hide, progressed forward where it cut/blew out about a foot of ribs, went into the rib cage, traveled a distance and exited the ribs and cut/blew out another foot of ribs and then cut the hide on the front quarter. My point with this is that the bullet went perfectly straight after partial and full contact the length of the buff, I was extremely impressed, I would've like to have recovered that bullet to examine it.
Can confirm that .45 colt does not like even grazing a pine tree and will bounce off a deer as a result as you can see by the hair on the tree below the impact.
Can also confirm that pine trees will slow a 125gr HP from a .300 Blackout to the point it bounces off a coyote on the other side.
Also a small branch is enough to deflect a 143gr ELD-X to the point it does not hit the deer 15 yards behind it. Not sure who was more surprised, me or the deer.
Now I have killed some deer with Hammers but I haven't tried shooting through a tree to do it.
Sorry about your luck.
No great loss, the coyote was the only one that annoyed me, the .45 Colt deer was small and the other one jumped out of the brush into the open where there were no branches to stop the second bullet.
In 20 years of hunting those are the only three instances I've had of branches/tree deflecting bullets.
The funniest ones I have ever seen both happened to the same guy. Both times he was shooting at deer on a drive, the first time the neighbor showed up after we finished for the day and gave him a sapling about 4" in diameter that the guy center punched with no chance of making it to the deer.
The second time I walked up to him at the end of the drive after he shot 3 times. He was about 10 ft up the hill from me and as I was talking to him about where he shot I noticed that three different 1" saplings 5 feet in front of him had a bullet hole on the left side of them. Needless to say with a 50 to 70 yard shot he had no chance of being on target with a soft point .270.
Yeah, I've had some issues over the years, but not many and it was usually explainable, or at least is now that I know a lot more now than I did then lol.
Like your 45 Colt example. That one grazed the side of the tree and impacted on the edge of the bullet, so it basically deflected it rather than punched through it. I'm actually surprised you found the bullet. That big round nosed bullet was able to absorb the glance somewhat. A higher powered more pointed rifle bullet, hitting the tree more squarely, will typically punch right through a tree like that. Depending on how it's constructed and how far the animal is from the tree behind it, will determine if it still has the ability to kill if it makes it through the tree.
Many of the other issues I've had with hitting things in the path to the animal were the open tip bullets like I mentioned. I don't recall any issues from AMAXs, VMAXs, BlitzKings, Ballistic Tips, etc but I could just be forgetting about an occasion lol. So far so good too with the newer varieties like Barnes TTSX (although I haven't shot one of those in several years now), Apex Afterburner, ELDX, TMK, TGK, ELDM, etc. I'm definitely due for some bad luck though.
Yeah, I've had some issues over the years, but not many and it was usually explainable, or at least is now that I know a lot more now than I did then lol.
Like your 45 Colt example. That one grazed the side of the tree and impacted on the edge of the bullet, so it basically deflected it rather than punched through it. I'm actually surprised you found the bullet. That big round nosed bullet was able to absorb the glance somewhat. A higher powered more pointed rifle bullet, hitting the tree more squarely, will typically punch right through a tree like that. Depending on how it's constructed and how far the animal is from the tree behind it, will determine if it still has the ability to kill if it makes it through the tree.
Many of the other issues I've had with hitting things in the path to the animal were the open tip bullets like I mentioned. I don't recall any issues from AMAXs, VMAXs, BlitzKings, Ballistic Tips, etc but I could just be forgetting about an occasion lol. So far so good too with the newer varieties like Barnes TTSX (although I haven't shot one of those in several years now), Apex Afterburner, ELDX, TMK, TGK, ELDM, etc. I'm definitely due for some bad luck though.
I actually found that bullet in front of the tree as it hit the deer in the shoulder with so little force it bounced off taking some hair with it. Low light, a tight shot between two trees with iron sights and a low power cartridge lead to a less than perfect shot. Had I been an inch to the right I'd have hit the deer right in the crease, but then I wouldn't have a neat story to tell about a deer so strong the bullet bounced off.
I would say anomoly. Very likely bullet tumbled before hp had chance to do its work. When monos fail this seems to me most likely thing to happen though I have not had it happen. If the tipped versions have a bigger hp it is less likely to happen but still can. A bullet impact is a violent reaction and some times things go wrong. A lead core soft point bullet is less likely to fail by tumbling before reaching terminal shape but it can happen there as well. Not saying lead core are better as they are more likely to fail in other ways (coming apart/insufficient penetration) than a mono just consequences of materials and designs so pick your poison
Lou
Lou
Gday David h
Great post yep I like failures & recovered pills is where the great stuff does show
Yours first class
Moving forward
contrary to some people's beliefs this is not a common occurrence with hammers & they are confusing it with other issues
on them a % base it's way less than other brands of similar type ( eg hp varieties )
Especially once we add the various velocity impacts & various resistances into the equation yes the whole package ( I acknowledge some issues exist ) & that includes finding out why this has occurred & hopefully clears one's head first before reading on
Now I hope the following explains a little more on where some would be advised to examine a pill to qualify it as behaving exactly the same on results & if it does your a long way forward of understanding that a weakness has been found in those combos or worse still in that particular brand & then as a hunter it is easy fixed & can relay the information to the company & other hunters so they don't experience or @ a minimum know what they are up against eg a classic is stay off bone
so please @adam32+P i would like to see those other bullets you referenced as then you will see the pattern & im not having a go it's I would like clarity so I & others may avoid this from occurring in the future as I've only witnessed a couple of instances the same as the op failed pill where the other instances occurred in the transition zone & id believe your in that area not the one that's happened here to the op well not the number your quoting & I'll leave alone for now if you are correct & apologise in advance if so
To everyone on the op's question of will the hht give better expansion than the hh line all in all I'm extremely doubtful on this exact same scenario ( if you could) except a hht to preform well instead of the poor hh
you will still have a failure regardless of pill in this instance it's not the pills fault on this one the later scenario of pictures to come will give a indication why the hht is superior hands down over the hh line
——————————————————
So it's not when it goes right it's the bad we should address BUT here lies the issue
Some just don't like either a person /company or whatever & you even see this once again in this thread
So until those stop the bull crap & look @ actual results that are factional
We won't get to the core or is it the cards have been layed out already
I hope not
——————————————————-
let's look @ this pill & it stares you in the face what it's done , with 6.5saum/300rum picking it up first so we'll done sir your observation is top notch & others that also picked it up on the first occasion they saw it
Yep I tip my hat to you guys look @ the meplat or more importantly the direction the copper has flowed in
Look @ this meplat
Oh & heaven forbid it's another hammer
Does one see a difference I hope so but let's put some more up oh& all hammers again 
& these are full image so it hopefully helps ( as no zooming in is needed & no distortion ) to understand that ea of those hammer bullets have a flaw & until one addresses those different flaws ( weaknesses as I usually call them ) you can't understand what has occurred let alone fix by relaying the correct information to the company in this case hammer
I see the horse before the cart with a few here so no worries on that just refocus your energy to why it's occurred or occurring & learn while helping others along the journey of understanding a bit more
Where this is so good you have the recovered pill to learn from
Start there & work backwards is what I do
Find out why & you will potentially fix the issue or if the company won't do anything if it's their issue it's time to move on or put a Band-Aid over it if it's ours or if one continues to use @all
if we can spot the difference ( I don't want to derail & I started this path on another thread which I would happily continue if one can actually not talk brand & look @ the system as that is when one knows who knows what not just by assuming a pill will do this due to broaching or not
Once again clear one's head plus look into the transition zone enough said on that
Now under standing those you will go a long way to understanding what has potentially occurred no guarantees totally get that but when the op pic clearly states a tumbling pill & yes you can have a tumbling pill enter straight one shot the next key hole next 1/2 way between etc now tumbling terminal wound channels also vary greatly & why straightline penetration is a more consistent killer than a tumbling pill ( broadly speaking again as a straight line pencil wound dosent kill well )
Yet I'll give sometimes a tumbling pill is simply amazing @ killing others is pitiful as in this case it's not a brand thing it's the system
———————————————————
I have stated before I will call BS when I see it regardless of who or what it is
Which obviously rubs some the wrong way but tough luck as I was over ***** footing around it many years ago
I just tone it down here vrs from real life just ask Steve how blunt I can be with his bullets .
I'm here to help where I can & learn along the way but when BS like this is put up
Yep I am worried that the new comers especially may go oh it's ok that guy said & he seems reputable & hey presto we have a bad outcome that is aside from the ones that do happen out of our control no we don't need to promote what one dosent know
Now the deflection part that's come up
Aron may I suggest you retract those words on a deflection & no concern from your part post #76 is the culprit
That to me I'll call straight out BS as in my belief ( factual evidence) deflection is a lot like tumbling broadly speaking it's worse in actuals but let's also see what numbers your quoting as enough for a reliable indicator so is it in the 100's or 10's I don't need actual on them rough will suffice then with that same pill on those numbers also again & repeat across all of those pills & numbers
here's some basics for you to consider also before you go sprooking things that will get newcomers in a bind
Buff horns are not like trees etc so please don't interpret on things you know nothing about
But the most important thing for you to understand is
The weight of the pill the shape of the pill & to a lessor extent the speed of the pill along with the resistance & angle that the moment that pill impacts you see varying result's depending on what is impacted & twigs of 1/4 in do cause issues along with leaves yes even leaves will deflect a bullet enough to cause gut shots
Now this is one I started to gather information on way back in 1997 on why some pills behave like they do on certain things now I stopped those trials roughly in 2000 ish revisited around 2014 for 2 years & only in the last 6 months have I started once again ( nothing in the last 3 of those as my body couldn't but mind hasn't stopped ticking & question asked to the ones I respect ) as I need a pill that will resist deflection to the best one can achieve & we have some good pills already but the bar can definitely be raised imo & im trying to find this out & one I would like to achieve
Now I'm not going to bore anyone with the finer details yet as it's unfinished but this is one that I will show here for everyone to see along with my home forum members as you have prompted me to speak up & why it's important for the new comers to our sport to understand it's not a high probability shot regardless of a pill
& before you ( if ) you answer me on that , may I also suggest you go & talk to mark first on what I do know & about what as I don't go around quoting things Willy nilly
Yes I'll let him fill you in on my poker hands but no bluff this side of the table
———————————————————
I'm sorry that post of mine went on & leave it with this
Find out why this occurred to the op & yep total failure & then you all on lrh may move forward but time will tell & one I hope happens as I know a lot of good people here & new comers that need guidance ( myself included)
taking this anti stance some have it's toxic & your loosing to many good ones
I will show those deflection results when completed it's actually quite astounding & a pattern has emerged already ( around 2014/5 I really saw it ) but the pills of tomorrow may just be the ones we need to use for those situationsbut it's fun seeing it play out & hoping it works out as anotherpill to our arsenal
I lastly apologise if this is taken as abrasive & if anyone knows how I can approach on a different level please let me know a pm would probably be better to not derail anymore
Cheers
Great post yep I like failures & recovered pills is where the great stuff does show
Yours first class
Moving forward
contrary to some people's beliefs this is not a common occurrence with hammers & they are confusing it with other issues
on them a % base it's way less than other brands of similar type ( eg hp varieties )
Especially once we add the various velocity impacts & various resistances into the equation yes the whole package ( I acknowledge some issues exist ) & that includes finding out why this has occurred & hopefully clears one's head first before reading on
Now I hope the following explains a little more on where some would be advised to examine a pill to qualify it as behaving exactly the same on results & if it does your a long way forward of understanding that a weakness has been found in those combos or worse still in that particular brand & then as a hunter it is easy fixed & can relay the information to the company & other hunters so they don't experience or @ a minimum know what they are up against eg a classic is stay off bone
so please @adam32+P i would like to see those other bullets you referenced as then you will see the pattern & im not having a go it's I would like clarity so I & others may avoid this from occurring in the future as I've only witnessed a couple of instances the same as the op failed pill where the other instances occurred in the transition zone & id believe your in that area not the one that's happened here to the op well not the number your quoting & I'll leave alone for now if you are correct & apologise in advance if so
To everyone on the op's question of will the hht give better expansion than the hh line all in all I'm extremely doubtful on this exact same scenario ( if you could) except a hht to preform well instead of the poor hh
you will still have a failure regardless of pill in this instance it's not the pills fault on this one the later scenario of pictures to come will give a indication why the hht is superior hands down over the hh line
——————————————————
So it's not when it goes right it's the bad we should address BUT here lies the issue
Some just don't like either a person /company or whatever & you even see this once again in this thread
So until those stop the bull crap & look @ actual results that are factional
We won't get to the core or is it the cards have been layed out already
I hope not——————————————————-
let's look @ this pill & it stares you in the face what it's done , with 6.5saum/300rum picking it up first so we'll done sir your observation is top notch & others that also picked it up on the first occasion they saw it
Yep I tip my hat to you guys look @ the meplat or more importantly the direction the copper has flowed in
Look @ this meplat
Oh & heaven forbid it's another hammer
Does one see a difference
I hope so but let's put some more up oh& all hammers again ) to understand that ea of those hammer bullets have a flaw & until one addresses those different flaws ( weaknesses as I usually call them ) you can't understand what has occurred let alone fix by relaying the correct information to the company in this case hammerI see the horse before the cart with a few here so no worries on that just refocus your energy to why it's occurred or occurring & learn while helping others along the journey of understanding a bit more
Where this is so good you have the recovered pill to learn from
Start there & work backwards is what I do
Find out why & you will potentially fix the issue or if the company won't do anything if it's their issue it's time to move on or put a Band-Aid over it if it's ours or if one continues to use @all
if we can spot the difference ( I don't want to derail & I started this path on another thread which I would happily continue if one can actually not talk brand & look @ the system as that is when one knows who knows what not just by assuming a pill will do this due to broaching or not
Once again clear one's head plus look into the transition zone enough said on that
Now under standing those you will go a long way to understanding what has potentially occurred no guarantees totally get that but when the op pic clearly states a tumbling pill & yes you can have a tumbling pill enter straight one shot the next key hole next 1/2 way between etc now tumbling terminal wound channels also vary greatly & why straightline penetration is a more consistent killer than a tumbling pill ( broadly speaking again as a straight line pencil wound dosent kill well )
Yet I'll give sometimes a tumbling pill is simply amazing @ killing others is pitiful as in this case it's not a brand thing it's the system
———————————————————
I have stated before I will call BS when I see it regardless of who or what it is
Which obviously rubs some the wrong way but tough luck as I was over ***** footing around it many years ago
I just tone it down here vrs from real life just ask Steve how blunt I can be with his bullets .
I'm here to help where I can & learn along the way but when BS like this is put up
Yep I am worried that the new comers especially may go oh it's ok that guy said & he seems reputable & hey presto we have a bad outcome that is aside from the ones that do happen out of our control no we don't need to promote what one dosent know
Now the deflection part that's come up
Aron may I suggest you retract those words on a deflection & no concern from your part post #76 is the culprit
That to me I'll call straight out BS as in my belief ( factual evidence) deflection is a lot like tumbling broadly speaking it's worse in actuals but let's also see what numbers your quoting as enough for a reliable indicator so is it in the 100's or 10's I don't need actual on them rough will suffice then with that same pill on those numbers also again & repeat across all of those pills & numbers
here's some basics for you to consider also before you go sprooking things that will get newcomers in a bind
Buff horns are not like trees etc so please don't interpret on things you know nothing about
But the most important thing for you to understand is
The weight of the pill the shape of the pill & to a lessor extent the speed of the pill along with the resistance & angle that the moment that pill impacts you see varying result's depending on what is impacted & twigs of 1/4 in do cause issues along with leaves yes even leaves will deflect a bullet enough to cause gut shots
Now this is one I started to gather information on way back in 1997 on why some pills behave like they do on certain things now I stopped those trials roughly in 2000 ish revisited around 2014 for 2 years & only in the last 6 months have I started once again ( nothing in the last 3 of those as my body couldn't but mind hasn't stopped ticking & question asked to the ones I respect ) as I need a pill that will resist deflection to the best one can achieve & we have some good pills already but the bar can definitely be raised imo & im trying to find this out & one I would like to achieve
Now I'm not going to bore anyone with the finer details yet as it's unfinished but this is one that I will show here for everyone to see along with my home forum members as you have prompted me to speak up & why it's important for the new comers to our sport to understand it's not a high probability shot regardless of a pill
& before you ( if ) you answer me on that , may I also suggest you go & talk to mark first on what I do know & about what as I don't go around quoting things Willy nilly
Yes I'll let him fill you in on my poker hands but no bluff this side of the table
———————————————————
I'm sorry that post of mine went on & leave it with this
Find out why this occurred to the op & yep total failure & then you all on lrh may move forward but time will tell & one I hope happens as I know a lot of good people here & new comers that need guidance ( myself included)
taking this anti stance some have it's toxic & your loosing to many good ones
I will show those deflection results when completed it's actually quite astounding & a pattern has emerged already ( around 2014/5 I really saw it ) but the pills of tomorrow may just be the ones we need to use for those situations
but it's fun seeing it play out & hoping it works out as anotherpill to our arsenal I lastly apologise if this is taken as abrasive & if anyone knows how I can approach on a different level please let me know a pm would probably be better to not derail anymore
Cheers
purpledragon
Well-Known Member
You're missing the chance to shoot an awesome bullet!!
I've gone to the Hammers in all my rifles, except the NEF Target Classic 38-55,
but do plan on having them make some for me, just has to be 500 of um for
them to do a run. Also my 7.62x39's, they don't make a .310 bullet.
sierracharlie338
Well-Known Member
Sad part is I have a few boxes on the bench right now, just have not had a chance to load and shoot them. I know, I know, Im a slacker!
I've shot at least hundreds of SST, AMAX, VMAX, SMKs, Bergers, ELDM, ELDX, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Sierra BlitzKings, TMKs, GameKings, Barnes varieties, etc. And even in the thousands of a few of those. Others not mentioned are not in the hundreds or more, but I have a fair experience still with many others. I've shot on a lot of rolling hills farm ground and through/over terraces and through lots of grass, brush, etc.
I was born and raised on a farm and had lots of opportunities. I started reloading with my grandpa and dad when I was around 9 and making my own by middle school, unsupervised. The farm life and now military life have been hard on my body too, so I can relate with you there. The military life has caused me to not shoot and hunt as much as I used to, but it hasn't taken away all the past experiences and I still get in my fair share now. I only have a few years to go and I'll be retired (takes longer not being active duty anymore), then I can really get back to business doing just the fun stuff lol.
Anyway, I did say I have had a few issues over the years, but the repeats were most common with the open tip bullets and not so much the tipped ones I used. There's a reason I pretty much only use tipped bullets nowadays. It's not just to help protect the cavity either.
Call BS all you want. I know what I experienced lol.
I also know buffalo horns are not like trees lol. I never said they were. I only brought up that story because it's a time a Hammer specifically hit something substantial before tissue and the final outcome was still good, or so I recall from the story. You can clarify that, and when I made that original comment on it I figured you would, but you seem to have misinterpreted the point I was making on it. My point was not always when Hammers hit something first does it mean it won't still work well. That was an example that popped in my head first. I've seen a lot of guys big on Hammers quick to blame hitting something along the way as if it'll always result in a poor result, but there's an extreme example of a time it didn't seem to matter. I'm sure there are others that have hit things too and probably didn't even know it because the outcome was still good. Can it happen? Absolutely, and it may very well have for the OP, but it's not a given either.
I have not once made comments in this thread in an effort to bash Hammer. I have only stated my opinions based on what I know already. If anything otherwise has been concluded from that, it's from reading too far into it and it's based on false pretenses. I'm just here discussing and making observations.
Steve himself said the new tipped versions help:
So to me, that translates to the HH line is susceptible to being damaged before impact and it can cause results like this. So that would mean nothing I've said so far is a flat out lie, right? It only backs up what I've said, right? Perhaps you just didn't like me saying it? I didn't say something like, "this happens all the time to Hammers because it's a crap design and you shouldn't use them ever". I mentioned how and why it could happen and that I've seen a few other instances now where it's happened, to include experiences of my own even with other bullets.
You have rambled on and said mostly nothing but people need to clear their minds and not jump to conclusions. I agree with that. You also said we learn more from failures and when things don't go so right. I agree there too, and it's why I like to be involved in discussions like this and it's why I'm here. So take my comments as that, because that's all they are. And please don't take offense here. I say you rambled on mostly in jest because you yourself call yourself out on that in many of your posts lol. I just didn't get much more out of this particular response is all, although there was maybe some potential.
Not sure what you're wanting me to answer here. I was hand loading by myself in 1997 and out there in the fields shooting coyotes, raccoons, opossums, rabbits, and lots of targets (could only shoot deer with shotguns and slugs).Now this is one I started to gather information on way back in 1997 on why some pills behave like they do on certain things now I stopped those trials roughly in 2000 ish revisited around 2014 for 2 years & only in the last 6 months have I started once again ( nothing in the last 3 of those as my body couldn't but mind hasn't stopped ticking & question asked to the ones I respect ) as I need a pill that will resist deflection to the best one can achieve & we have some good pills already but the bar can definitely be raised imo & im trying to find this out & one I would like to achieve
Now I'm not going to bore anyone with the finer details yet as it's unfinished but this is one that I will show here for everyone to see along with my home forum members as you have prompted me to speak up & why it's important for the new comers to our sport to understand it's not a high probability shot regardless of a pill
& before you ( if ) you answer me on that , may I also suggest you go & talk to mark first on what I do know & about what as I don't go around quoting things Willy nilly
Yes I'll let him fill you in on my poker hands but no bluff this side of the table
Not sure what I need to talk to Mark about either. I'm not here trying to call you out, so I'm not sure what this is about.
Let's move on now, shall we? Focus on bullets and learn more about them and terminal ballistics…. Figure out what there is to figure out with things like in the OP and use that to build on our wisdom and equip us for more success out there. So please, there's no reason to respond to this any further and drag anything out that's not going to help the OP.
Happy Thanksgiving to all celebrating!
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