Bullet Expansion - Hammer Hunter vs HHT

[257Tony]

I had the same thing happen on a Bull elk last year, when a client borrowed my personal 28 Nosler (143 HH) after his rifle wouldn't shoot. The killed a great bull at 577 yards, we recovered one bullet with almost no expansion, and a bent ogive. I contacted Steve at Hammer Bullets, we went over all the possibilities, and after talking to the client some more, from his angle he had to shoot through some brush on his follow up shot.

We've killed several more Bulls with that rifle since then, all with perfect terminal performance.

 

[Moondoggie]

Based on only OP info, I will throw in my two cents. Feeding/misalignment/deflection/stabilization issue. Pick one.

There is always a reason a bullet fails. 1.5" entrance hole is just a tad large, imho.

 

[Rosebud]

OP here. Good feedback for the most part. I have some 203 HHT at home but based on what I heard and learned I think that I might focus on the 182HHT as it is shorter and less likely to tumble on game.

I wanted this thread to focus on this particular bullet so I only shared the short story of my first ever elk hunt. I'm so relieved that I got the elk as the hunt continued on as these two shots did not finish him soon enough. After much much effort I was finally able to finish him with a 40 yard shot.

Next time I'll probably be rockin with the 182gr HHT. And, I'll make my shot placement a little better.

Good man! My efforts with hammer bullets is shoot lighter for caliber bullets at very fast velocity. If you were shooting165 gr .308 before, drop to 124 grain Hammer Hunter @ blazing speed. A 85 grain Hammer and 99 grain Hammer in .264 are VERY effective on deer sized game and hogs. PS, I've never recovered a bullet for inspection.

 

[flyguy1]

I've shot many bullets through many obstacles, such as corn stalks, bean stubble, grass, tree branches, saplings, etc, etc and most bullets I use do not have issues with it.

If the bullets in this case hit something substantial and that's the cause for the result, I'd be much happier with that explanation vs it being a bullet issue, don't get me wrong.

What bullets are you shooting through saplings that still expand on game? That seems to defy physics, as saplings are much more dense than animal flesh.

 

[shinbone]

JMHO, but Hammer bullets do best at high velocity because they kill by hydrostatic shock, not gross tissue tearing/displacement like a lead core bullet.

Consequently, while instinct says use the same weight Hammer bullet as the lead core bullet it replaces, that is a mistake. The best thing to do is to drop bullet weight by about 25%-30%, and shoot at highest velocity possible. You can reduce bullet weight because, unlike a lead bullet, a Hammer bullet retains its weight through the animal, thus you don't need to start with a bunch of extra mass to account for what will be lost. While the Hammer bullet does lose its nose, those lost petals do their own damage, so it is not really "lost" weight. In other words, if you want 150gn to pass through an elk to kill it, you don't need to start with 180gn bullet, you can just simply shoot a 150gn bullet.

By reducing weight, you gain speed, which is right in the Hammer bullet's wheelhouse. That, plus Hammer bullet's already can be run faster than a lead core equivalent, means you get a big increase in velocity over a lead bullet. This large increase in velocity really knocks the animals down. There are other all-copper bullets which benefit from the same considerations, too.

Again, JMHO, but when I see someone shooting a 180gn or 200gn Hammer bullet out of a 300 Win Mag, I question whether they understand how a Hammer bullet works.

If you want a high BC for taking animals at 800+ yards, then maybe a heavy-for-caliber, lead core bullet is the better choice. But for the majority of shooting distances encountered by hunters, a light-weight, super fast Hammer bullet is an excellent choice.

All JMHO.

 

[Petey308]

What bullets are you shooting through saplings that still expand on game? That seems to defy physics, as saplings are much more dense than animal flesh.

Well, I'm not talking about 4' or taller saplings. I'm talking about the little guys just a bit thicker than some thick grass. The stuff at the edges of fields that grows up between spring tillings.

The most recent was shooting a 135gr Apex Afterburner. Snapped the little sapling off in its path yet still hit POA and bullet still performed as advertised.

I've snapped off 1/4" branches out of a tree stand too with all kinds of different bullets. Rarely has it ever been a problem. It's not the same resistance as thick muscular flesh and bone surrounded by flesh.

I've shot prone through cornstalks, grass, those little saplings, beans, etc a lot over the years now and I know I've hit them all more than a few at times. It's not ideal and I'd rather not hit anything but the animal, but it's happened enough for me and not been a problem I don't skip on a shot just because there's some brush that might be in the path. I'm not going to take a shot through anything real substantial though without knowing I can avoid it. If I have the opportunity to avoid it, I will.

I've shot enough whitetail and coyotes over the years through small brush to not be too concerned overall though if I'm not using a bullet with a small open tip that is sensitive to not working if that tip gets compromised. So that includes bullets like SMKs, Bergers, etc.

There's a reason I test as many bullets as I do. I usually use a few different bullets for a given season, and open tip bullets definitely have been the only ones I've ever had issues with in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if a tip was dislodged a time or two when hitting an obstacle, but I've never been able to find evidence of that and they still managed to hit close enough at least to POA to conclude it didn't make a difference.

I haven't personally done it, but I know someone personally who has shot completely through a tree and still killed a deer on the other side. It wasn't planned. It was trotting and he took the shot right as the tree entered his scope. Now that was an extreme and likely wouldn't duplicate lol, but it can happen.

There's even a story about a Hammer bullet entering the horn of a water buffalo before entering the body and the story goes it still performed well and killed the buffalo. I do believe it didn't separate all the petals though, but it didn't deflect or stop the bullet from still entering the body.

A thick branch or thicker sapling trunk could definitely compromise any bullet, especially one like in the OP, so do t get me wrong here.

My hope is the newer tipped Hammers are indeed not as sensitive to such things like other tipped bullets I've used in that scenario with lots of success.

 

[Window]

Curious if I can expect better expansion from Hammer HHT vs my current 199 gr Hammer Hunter? I'm a little surprised at the minimal expansion in my Hammer Hunter (pic below).

Bullet recovered from my Elk. The Quick story: spotted lone 6x6 at 15 minutes after sunset. Took shot at 520 yards. Hit high spine, bull arched up and was still on feet quartered away. Took a second shot (this bullet) hit left rear quarter. Bullet did not seem to penetrate far nor did it expand. I did notice that hollow point was filled with flesh. Hoping the HHT might be better.
View attachment 512387

Very interesting. Just got home from Colorado and our group took three bulls with with the 181 Hammer Hunters. All were inside 200 yds and all died within sight. We've shot hundreds of deer and dozens of elk and haven't seen this. I load for fifty plus people and most have multiple rifles. I will say that nearly all want to shoot heavy for caliber bullets and I refuse to do so because of low impact velocity. Hammers work best when impact velocity is above 1700fps and have been extremely predictable without a failure. I get the fact that there's no perfect projectile and I'm not by any means tooting the Hammer horn, but stay light and they'll do all you need. If your need is ELR, shoot Bergers, Hornadys I'd Sierras. They're all great and have a purpose and I still shoot them all. As for Hammers, go light, spin them fast and they will absolutely do the job.

 

[Petey308]

Very interesting. Just got home from Colorado and our group took three bulls with with the 181 Hammer Hunters. All were inside 200 yds and all died within sight. We've shot hundreds of deer and dozens of elk and haven't seen this. I load for fifty plus people and most have multiple rifles. I will say that nearly all want to shoot heavy for caliber bullets and I refuse to do so because of low impact velocity. Hammers work best when impact velocity is above 1700fps and have been extremely predictable without a failure. I get the fact that there's no perfect projectile and I'm not by any means tooting the Hammer horn, but stay light and they'll do all you need. If your need is ELR, shoot Bergers, Hornadys I'd Sierras. They're all great and have a purpose and I still shoot them all. As for Hammers, go light, spin them fast and they will absolutely do the job.

That honestly goes for pretty much any mono for hunting applications. Lighter and faster is the way to go.

 

[shinbone]

That honestly goes for pretty much any mono for hunting applications. Lighter and faster is the way to go.

While true, many people seem to miss that point, myself included when I first started shooting monos. It is good to get that information out there to reduce the chances of disappointing hunters the first time out with their new lead-free loads.

 

[Petey308]

While true, many people seem to miss that point, myself included when I first started shooting monos. It is good to get that information out there to reduce the chances of disappointing hunters the first time out with their new lead-free loads.

Agreed. I was just adding to, or clarifying is all.

 

[shinbone]

Copy that. Too bad there isn't some mechanism through which new mono-shooters can easily learn this valuable info.

 

[Petey308]

Copy that. Too bad there isn't some mechanism through which new mono-shooters can easily learn this valuable info.

In my opinion, I think a lot of the manufacturers don't do as well as they could to market that part of it. Not all, but many of the big names do not. It should be mentioned almost ad nauseam in all advertisements and marketing, and why. What you see most is that they're lead free, they perform amazing, they retain most of their weight, etc. So that doesn't get more important things across like what weight bullet to use and why and then a lot don't even know there are in fact monos that are deliberately designed to actually NOT retain most of their weight. That comes as a surprise to a lot when gen learn that about bullets such as Hammer, Cutting Edge, Apex, Lehigh Defense, etc.

A lot could be done better where people are seeing and hearing about them the most, which is the advertisements and other marketing avenues.

 

[Koda_]

Copy that. Too bad there isn't some mechanism through which new mono-shooters can easily learn this valuable info.

Length of bullet,

compared to cup and cores...
The only reason people need to go lighter is because the equal weight bullet is longer and protrudes into the case deeper reducing powder volume and thus velocity. To make up for the velocity you have to go lighter in monos...
By comparison.

 

[Petey308]

Length of bullet,

compared to cup and cores...
The only reason people need to go lighter is because the equal weight bullet is longer and protrudes into the case deeper reducing powder volume and thus velocity. To make up for the velocity you have to go lighter in monos...
By comparison.

That's definitely not the only reason. It's a big one, but not the only at all.