I'm in az, so my threats are more likely to be 2 legged than four. If it is a bear I hope I'll be prepared. I carry a Glock 29 loaded w/ 220gr Underwood hard casts moving at 1200fps. I have a back up mag of 15 200gr XTP @ 1250fps. I carry in on my pack in a Wilderness Safepacker.
Bear spray vs Bullets
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jmden
Well-Known Member
Maybe this'll be helpful to someone trying to decide what various bullets at various velocities do...
Been saving up Costco 1 gallon milk jugs for weeks. Finally got to them and a couple of pistols to the range. A 180g Hornady XTP in a .40 SW at about 1225 fps and a 300g Hornady XTP Mag in .50 AE doing about 1575fps. Carefully filled all jugs exactly to the same amount of water and lined up the milk jugs so they were all oriented the same and in a very straight line on a table. Shot from approx. 15' away.
300g XTP mag was first. I was too close. Got soaked. It was found in the 4th jug perfectly expanded to just under .9 inches and had only lost 20g. It almost made it out of the 4th jug. Could see where it busted the plastic in several places on the backside of that jug. First two jugs where obliterated. I had to go get a towel from my rig and dry myself and the gun off.
180g XTP basically did the same thing in terms of penetration, but I didn't come close to getting wet shooting from same spot. It was found in the 4th jug and had just cracked the backside of the 4th jug trying to get out of it. It also lost 20g...interesting...and expanded to right around .6 inches.
Thought this might be interesting info for someone. Both of these loads were developed as 'bear' loads in their respective pistols. When in known griz country, I've started taking the .50AE as it packs about 3x the wallop as the load for the .40 SW. The .50AE is a good sized pistol and weighs about 5 lbs, but packing it on the waist belt of my pack I don't even notice it.
Been saving up Costco 1 gallon milk jugs for weeks. Finally got to them and a couple of pistols to the range. A 180g Hornady XTP in a .40 SW at about 1225 fps and a 300g Hornady XTP Mag in .50 AE doing about 1575fps. Carefully filled all jugs exactly to the same amount of water and lined up the milk jugs so they were all oriented the same and in a very straight line on a table. Shot from approx. 15' away.
300g XTP mag was first. I was too close. Got soaked. It was found in the 4th jug perfectly expanded to just under .9 inches and had only lost 20g. It almost made it out of the 4th jug. Could see where it busted the plastic in several places on the backside of that jug. First two jugs where obliterated. I had to go get a towel from my rig and dry myself and the gun off.
180g XTP basically did the same thing in terms of penetration, but I didn't come close to getting wet shooting from same spot. It was found in the 4th jug and had just cracked the backside of the 4th jug trying to get out of it. It also lost 20g...interesting...and expanded to right around .6 inches.
Thought this might be interesting info for someone. Both of these loads were developed as 'bear' loads in their respective pistols. When in known griz country, I've started taking the .50AE as it packs about 3x the wallop as the load for the .40 SW. The .50AE is a good sized pistol and weighs about 5 lbs, but packing it on the waist belt of my pack I don't even notice it.
Two more brown bear maulings near my house within the past two weeks. One local man was walking his neighbor's dog down the road within 1/4 mile of his home. Had neither bear spray nor bullets with him at the time. Must have felt safe that close to his house.
The other man was from Texas, hunting moose with his brother. His brother tried calling in a bull moose and a sow came to the call and attacked him. The sow was accompanied by two, 2-3yr old cubs. But the sow was the only one to inflict damage. The brother saw the attack unfold from a distance of 40yds and came to the rescue, firing several shots into the sow. Sow was later found dead 100yds away. Texas man still in the hospital. The Texas man was only able to fire a single shot before being mauled. Might not have survived if his brother hadn't come to the rescue.
The bear attack threat where I live isn't an imaginary threat. The bears prove themselves worthy of respect - normally every year. Some years multiple times. No local deaths yet this bear mauling season, but the victims all have bear scar (and scare) stories to tell for the rest of their lives... Survivors fortunate enough to have a second chance - i.e. the "rest of their lives".
I still prefer bullets...
The other man was from Texas, hunting moose with his brother. His brother tried calling in a bull moose and a sow came to the call and attacked him. The sow was accompanied by two, 2-3yr old cubs. But the sow was the only one to inflict damage. The brother saw the attack unfold from a distance of 40yds and came to the rescue, firing several shots into the sow. Sow was later found dead 100yds away. Texas man still in the hospital. The Texas man was only able to fire a single shot before being mauled. Might not have survived if his brother hadn't come to the rescue.
The bear attack threat where I live isn't an imaginary threat. The bears prove themselves worthy of respect - normally every year. Some years multiple times. No local deaths yet this bear mauling season, but the victims all have bear scar (and scare) stories to tell for the rest of their lives... Survivors fortunate enough to have a second chance - i.e. the "rest of their lives".
I still prefer bullets...
jmden
Well-Known Member
Speaking of bullets...and my attempt at 'bear' loads in various chamberings, here is a little info to add to a possible decision equation.
Doing the old water filled milkjug test revealed some interesting things to me lately. Whether or not this is a valid test may be a question for another thread, but at any rate, here's the loads I've tested and the results. All jugs were carefully filled with the same amount of water and placed carefully right in line, each jug oriented in the same direction, on a table. Shot from 5 paces.
.40 SW -- 180g Hornady XTP doing 1225fps -- almost made it out of the 4th milkjug, bullet weighed 160g and expanded to .6 inch
.50 AE - 300g Hornady XTP-Mag doing 1575fps -- absolutely obliterated first three milkjugs -- I got soaked from 5 paces -- just fragments of milkjug -- weighed 280g when found and expanded to .9 inch bullet -- almost made it out of the 4th milkjug as well
.357 Magnum -- 185g Bearthooth Bullets hard cast, gas check bullet doing about 1365fps -- split first three milkjugs vertically top to bottom -- AND then proceeded to continue through ALL eight milkjugs I had lined up -- could not find bullet in berm -- this is apparently a pretty good elk load for this chambering which I more apt to believe after seeing this. Video link below of the .357 mag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOPHxN8Oj_Q&feature=youtu.be
Doing the old water filled milkjug test revealed some interesting things to me lately. Whether or not this is a valid test may be a question for another thread, but at any rate, here's the loads I've tested and the results. All jugs were carefully filled with the same amount of water and placed carefully right in line, each jug oriented in the same direction, on a table. Shot from 5 paces.
.40 SW -- 180g Hornady XTP doing 1225fps -- almost made it out of the 4th milkjug, bullet weighed 160g and expanded to .6 inch
.50 AE - 300g Hornady XTP-Mag doing 1575fps -- absolutely obliterated first three milkjugs -- I got soaked from 5 paces -- just fragments of milkjug -- weighed 280g when found and expanded to .9 inch bullet -- almost made it out of the 4th milkjug as well
.357 Magnum -- 185g Bearthooth Bullets hard cast, gas check bullet doing about 1365fps -- split first three milkjugs vertically top to bottom -- AND then proceeded to continue through ALL eight milkjugs I had lined up -- could not find bullet in berm -- this is apparently a pretty good elk load for this chambering which I more apt to believe after seeing this. Video link below of the .357 mag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOPHxN8Oj_Q&feature=youtu.be
WildRose
Well-Known Member
There's a reason that lots of the dangerous game guides shoot big, slow, hard cast lead bullets.
jmden
Well-Known Member
As a follow up to this, here's a penetration/carnage test with the 200g Beartooth Bullets hardcast gascheck out of the .40SW doing about 1100fps under 7.8g of Hodgdon Longshot. A warm load. About 537 ft. lbs. of energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DskEcDvtzY
About the same amount of carnage in the first 4 jugs, but then it just kept on going through all 8 jugs. I'm staggering these with 180g XTPs at 1225 fps (600 ft. lbs. of energy) every other round when I carry this as a woods gun now.
Also, have worked up a 370g Cast Performance hardcast gas checked bullet load in the .50AE over 33g of H110 doing about 1475 fps MV. It's quite a wallop at about 1800 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. Am alternating these every other round in this gun with 300g XTP-MAG doing about 1575 fps just to cover the bases. Again, about the same amount of carnage in the first 4 milkjugs as with an XTP-MAG, but it didn't stop in the 4th jug like the XTP-MAG. Instead it just kept on going through all eight jugs and lodged about 12" into the sand berm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-7SkT2Bto
Maybe this info will be interesting to someone working on 'bear loads' for their pistols. I sure like what I see with the hardcast bullets in testing, but am still alternating with and expanding bullet every other round.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Excellent information. I too have been extremely impressed with the XTP's and I really like them in my .45lc and .41 and .44 magnums.
Good expansion with teriffic penetration. I've used them to great effect on large hogs taken with all three calibers as well as in the .45acp.
Good expansion with teriffic penetration. I've used them to great effect on large hogs taken with all three calibers as well as in the .45acp.
Rckymtnshooter
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I have lived and hunted in grizzly country my whole life. Glacier Park is a 30 minute drive away. 30 years ago it was something to talk about if you saw a grizzly track to now currently having multiple grizzly sightings during hunting season. Three years ago we saw 13 different grizzly in September over a two week hunting vacation. The reality of a close range encounter is there for sure.
With the above in mind I pack both spray and a 44 mag.The 44 is loaded with a 300 grain hard cast load. Having a load that can penetrate to the vitals is what I'm looking for. The spray will work but there are issues to consider. I have had the fortune or misfortune to have been sprayed a handful of times with human pepper spray and to have seen multiple other people sprayed. The common initial response is to let yourself become incapacitated by the spray. Have it in mind that you can continue to function if exposed to the spray. If you get it in your eyes it is pretty much a natural reaction to have your eyes clamp shut. If so reach with your off hand and physically hold you eyelid open. The most effective exposure I had was a direct shot to the face and then run a basic obstacle course right afterwards. You can work through it. The spray basically comes out in a fog and is easily moved by the wind.
If I had to pick one or the other the bear spray would stay home.
With the above in mind I pack both spray and a 44 mag.The 44 is loaded with a 300 grain hard cast load. Having a load that can penetrate to the vitals is what I'm looking for. The spray will work but there are issues to consider. I have had the fortune or misfortune to have been sprayed a handful of times with human pepper spray and to have seen multiple other people sprayed. The common initial response is to let yourself become incapacitated by the spray. Have it in mind that you can continue to function if exposed to the spray. If you get it in your eyes it is pretty much a natural reaction to have your eyes clamp shut. If so reach with your off hand and physically hold you eyelid open. The most effective exposure I had was a direct shot to the face and then run a basic obstacle course right afterwards. You can work through it. The spray basically comes out in a fog and is easily moved by the wind.
If I had to pick one or the other the bear spray would stay home.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
All good reasons it's not wise to venture into bear country alone.
I don't mind the idea of someone else using bear spray as long as I get to back them up with the .41Rem, 45lc, or 44mag.
If I lived where the risk was significant I'd always have one of those handy and carry the M1A loaded with something like the VRG-3 or Swift A Frame or the 1895 Marlin Guide Gun.
KillerBee
Well-Known Member
Lots of Grizz in my part of the world and our STUPID GOVERNMENT does not allow us to carry a hand gun while bow hunting, so I carry a Mossberg Maverick 88 with 4 3" High Shock Federal Express Slugs with the last shot being 00 Buckshot. I also carry bear spray! Many people have been killed by Grizz while hunting in Alberta. Two hunters were attacked last hunting season the bear actually pulled him off of his quad, he was severally damaged but was a lucky survivor!
A few years back I was attacked by a Black Bear that got within two feet on me. While he was charging I threw my bow to the ground and shot him dead with my defender and a slug. Talk about adrenalin rush! A Grizz in attack mode is a nightmare scenario for many of us bow hunters in Alberta and BC!
I will also add that if you are attacked by a Black Bear, don't bother trying to climb a tree, they climb tree as fast as squirrels!
A few years back I was attacked by a Black Bear that got within two feet on me. While he was charging I threw my bow to the ground and shot him dead with my defender and a slug. Talk about adrenalin rush! A Grizz in attack mode is a nightmare scenario for many of us bow hunters in Alberta and BC!
I will also add that if you are attacked by a Black Bear, don't bother trying to climb a tree, they climb tree as fast as squirrels!
jmden
Well-Known Member
Wanted to follow up with this and let folks know that might care that I'm not using the hard cast load in this .50 AE anymore. It is a gas operated pistol and the lead could cause the gas system to get clogged. I've now seen a little evidence of this and don't want to go down that road. May look at the Hornady XTP-Mag 350g bullet that's designed for the .500 SW as it's designed for higher speed the the XTP-MAG made for the .50 AE and may not expand as much and penetrate more than the 300g XTP-MAG made for the the .50 AE. Didn't want to knowingly leave any bad info out there.
Re: Bear Spray Failure Documented by Survivor
Members participating in this Thread should be interested in reading of this brown bear mauling incident. The bear was a sow, with cubs. The victim states he showered the charging bear in the face with his bear spray for 3-4 seconds just prior to getting knocked down and mauled. The sow never displayed any signs of discomfort or physical stress/strain in response to the bear spray. She attacked, disabled the victim, and then stood over the mauling victim until she decided to walk away. I can hear the counter-arguments now... "This was a unique brown bear that was immune to bear spray. The guy had defective bear spray. The guy didn't shove the nozzle on the can up the bear's nose prior to discharging the spray. It really really really works all the rest of the time." Maybe so, but all the rest of the times in the world count for nothing during this man's time of need.
Here's a link to the article, with direct quotes from the mauling victim. After bear attack, guide goes into woods more prepared - State - Dothan Eagle
Might want to read this if your decision has been to protect your health and life from bears with solely bear spray. Here are the most telling quotes from the victim:
"Then I heard a big roar, a really intense sound and the first connection I made in my brain was that it was a chainsaw — 'Oh, there's some logging going on. No, that's not right, it's a bear,'" he described.
As he ran toward the front of the group, Justa un-holstered his bear spray, which he hadn't used since training, and took the safety off.
"I didn't actually see the bear on Marika at all because the bear was already charging towards me. It closed the gap really fast, must have been five or 10 seconds," Justa said. "I stood and I sprayed, and it hit the bear right in the face for a least three or four seconds. Then, it bit me in my right leg and knocked me down and bear spray got flung off."
Justa said he can't be sure if the sow felt the threat was neutralized or if the bear spray actually worked.
"What I was expecting was some sort of reaction, like you or I would do if we got sprayed in the face with pepper spray, like be taken aback, and that didn't happen. It just kept coming at me, but it didn't keep attacking when I was on the ground. It just decided to walk away," he said.
Members participating in this Thread should be interested in reading of this brown bear mauling incident. The bear was a sow, with cubs. The victim states he showered the charging bear in the face with his bear spray for 3-4 seconds just prior to getting knocked down and mauled. The sow never displayed any signs of discomfort or physical stress/strain in response to the bear spray. She attacked, disabled the victim, and then stood over the mauling victim until she decided to walk away. I can hear the counter-arguments now... "This was a unique brown bear that was immune to bear spray. The guy had defective bear spray. The guy didn't shove the nozzle on the can up the bear's nose prior to discharging the spray. It really really really works all the rest of the time." Maybe so, but all the rest of the times in the world count for nothing during this man's time of need.
Here's a link to the article, with direct quotes from the mauling victim. After bear attack, guide goes into woods more prepared - State - Dothan Eagle
Might want to read this if your decision has been to protect your health and life from bears with solely bear spray. Here are the most telling quotes from the victim:
"Then I heard a big roar, a really intense sound and the first connection I made in my brain was that it was a chainsaw — 'Oh, there's some logging going on. No, that's not right, it's a bear,'" he described.
As he ran toward the front of the group, Justa un-holstered his bear spray, which he hadn't used since training, and took the safety off.
"I didn't actually see the bear on Marika at all because the bear was already charging towards me. It closed the gap really fast, must have been five or 10 seconds," Justa said. "I stood and I sprayed, and it hit the bear right in the face for a least three or four seconds. Then, it bit me in my right leg and knocked me down and bear spray got flung off."
Justa said he can't be sure if the sow felt the threat was neutralized or if the bear spray actually worked.
"What I was expecting was some sort of reaction, like you or I would do if we got sprayed in the face with pepper spray, like be taken aback, and that didn't happen. It just kept coming at me, but it didn't keep attacking when I was on the ground. It just decided to walk away," he said.
