Barnes's Tests Prove Why Berger Hunting VLDs Are So Successful By Eric Stecker

[ken snyder]

I enjoy using TSX in some of my larger cartridges, they are a good bullet. They do have an annoying possibility of not opening up. If the meplat gets bent shut they will not open up and the bullet will change its terminal trajectory and exit in some unintended location. All bullets have their quirks!

 

[CRaTxn]

Ken's comment is right on ...I too love Barnes Xs for their intended purpose...deep penetration thru thick skinned, big boned animals that produce an exit wound for trailing just in case you get a deflection or mi..mi..miss your intended aim point. Leaving all the energy in an animal is great if, IF it puts them down where you can easily find them...trouble is _ _ it happens and entrance wounds do NOT tend to provide much of a blood trail while exit wounds do. Terminal ballistics is wonderful with Barnes Xs on escaping (or charging) adrenalin pumping muscle tissue animals at high velocity impact. Terminal ballistics is wonderful on Berger Hunting VLDs on relaxed muscle tissue animals at reduced velocity impact.
At LRH distances this Berger Hunting VLD is the latest and greatest technology but don't think it will let you use the Texas heart shot on the proverbial south end of a north bound elk in dark timber when you jump him out of his bed. Just like the 1.5v5X scope being better for timber(or dangerous game) hunting and the 5.5v22X making LRH easier...we can't talk all these properties into one box.

 

[joe0121]

I have always suspected that VLD are indeed a nasty pill for game animals. Look at Hornady TAP ammo and how it is designed. It hits and within two inches "explodes" This creates a massive drop in blood pressure (and wound) that puts the threat down instantly. Now TAP is designed for LE/defense use but the concept is very sound. Create a really big hole that is going to bleed a lot.


Now like Berger says extend that to a VLD bullet. What you get is a pill that will have very low wind drift a flat trajectory (reducing user error in wind estimation) and arive at a much higher velocity with more energy. On impact it will dump all it's energy into the animal causing it to go into shock and expire very quickly.

All this sounds very ethical and responsible to me. Increased accuracy and chance of a fast clean kill, not to mention dropping an animal in it's tracts so you have a better chance at harvesting the thing. Imagine a barnes bullet sure you kill it but after it runs a half mile. now the deer has suffered and needlessly because you'll never find it.

All this is a fine intellectual exercise. But I like real world results and they dont lie how many video out there of .338 Edge shooting 300GR mathckings(that video of that bear dropping dead at 669 yards comes to mind), or 300 win mag shooting 210 berger VLD or Hornady 208GR Amax where the animal goes down like someone hit a light switch. Seems obvious to me from reading on this board that VLD are mighty good at killing animal first shot and putting them down quick.

Only downside is If you miss the vitals and get them say in the rear it might ruin a lot of the good meat. Of course the same is true of any round.

To me a quick kill were the animal drops dead in it's track is paramount. You achieve this through proficiency with your weapon and an accurate load. gun)

As always this is just my .02 and I'm just some yahoo on the internet, so I would recommend everyone who is worried about the ethics of VLD's go spend some time varmint hunting with them I think you'll change your mind.

 

[Eric Stecker]

The 6.5 Berger VLD flies and groups very well, I will give it that. But, how it performs on big game is inconsistent at best. In my experiences, the 140 VLD works best if you have a perfect double lung broadside shot. How often do you get a 'perfect' shot? Even then, I would consider it a gamble if using Bergers; especially if hunting whitetail.

Berger states that their hunting bullets penetrate 2 to 3 inches of tissue and bone before expanding deep in the vital area. They also brag that game "won't run away from a Berger Hunting VLD." I have found these statements to be false, more often than not. I have seen both the 130 and 140 work well on black bear, mulies and whitetail. Although, none of the animals were DRT. Some actually ran very far before going down; which makes me nervous using it in thick, brushy areas. I have also witnessed the 6.5 140 literally blow up on the outside of multiple deer and antelope. Hence, why my main argument is with Berger's consistency.

Besides consistency, I have not seen many exit holes. And, if it does exit, it generally destroys the hide. I want my trophies killed cleanly and DRT. Therefore, I want my bullets to retain weight, penetrate deep and leave an exit hole. I believe exit holes are important for better blood trails. Since using the Tipped TSX, I have not had to follow any.

If I just wanted to ring that 800 yard gong all day, there would have been no reason to switch. But, I want to do that and more. I want my bullets to actually kill every time. So now... I Shoot Better, I Shoot Barnes.

Elkoholic,

I know your post is a few months old but it has been a while since I've visited this particular thread. I quoted your post so that others will know what I am referring to with my response. You make a good point that is not lost on our efforts to make the best hunting bullets we can.

One of our primary concerns from the beginning was terminal performance consistency. Even though we conducted hundreds of tests (mostly in media but also in game) that proved consistent results we were always aware that inconsistent performance was our greatest concern. If for no other reason than the numerous different shooting systems that would use our bullets that we were unable to test due to their sheer numbers.

After we launched our bullets as "Hunting" bullets we had our ears wide open for reports of terminal performance failures. It was nearly a year before we received our first report. Since then we have received a couple dozen reports of terminal performance "failures" ranging from failure to expand to expansion on impact. Each of these reports is taken seriously and we are working to understand the root cause so that we can eliminate these results completely.

Having said that, over that same period of time we have sold over 50,000,000 hunting bullets. I will assume that all of these have not been used on game but if 10% have then that is 5,000,000 animals taken with Berger Hunting VLD. Assuming the few dozen reports we get are multiplied 10 times to account for those who don't tell us what happened, we are talking about a "failure" rate of 0.005%.

Of course we are working to achieve perfection but I can relay that I have heard more than a few dozen stories about "failures" by other brands (with the larger portion of these reports being about Barnes). I will accept that these companies sell more hunting bullets than we do so it is reasonable to estimate that they will have more reported failures due to the ratio of their bullets sold to ours.

My point is that no bullet or brand performs 100% perfectly all the time. In many of these situations the bullet (regardless of brand) may have had no chance of working properly due to other variable that affect external ballistic and terminal performance. The best a hunter can do is to use the shooting system (and bullet) that he trusts based on his personal results or recommendations from others he trusts to be capable.

Given your observations, I would expect you to continue to shoot Barnes as you should since they've worked for you. I will suggest that your experience with Berger is an exception to what is commonly experienced by hunters all over the world. I'd go further to say that if you rotated equally between Barnes and Berger between animals you shoot, over the course of your hunting experiences you will observe fewer poor performance issues with Berger than with Barnes if you use both with an equal effort to achieve successful results.

Regards,
Eric

 

[extreme]

Best elk medicine out of my 338/378,s is barnes tsx or sierra match king..Berger 300 gr. 338 didnt work before and the new 300 gr. wont either.
Just trying to set them up correctly is a pain. when i called berger a year ago the answer was no jump. last week it was they will work better if they do jump.barnes and sierra work even with a bad shot. what i read on shawns post didnt sound that positive to me.

 

[Eric Stecker]

Extreme,

When you say that the Berger's didn't work but the Barnes' and Sierra's do, can you be more specific. What were the conditions under which you found that the Barnes' and Sierra's were successful and the Berger's were unsuccessful?

The Berger 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid is shooting extremely well (MOA) for many shooters in every 338 cal case of which I am aware (except for those who had performance issues at high velocity with the Gen 1 bullets). The fact that it didn't shoot in your rifle does not automatically mean that the bullet is bad. Precision is affected by many variables that make up the shooting system.

The design of this particular bullet (Hybrid) is such that it should work well at any seating depth. In Shawn's rifle he found it worked well close to the lands. In others it works well with a jump. It doesn't take many rounds to test your rifle at different COAL. The advice that you were given is consistent with the standard tuning processes. You try it at one point and if it doesn't work you try it at another.

Regards,
Eric

 

[extreme]

Eric

not trying to avoid the answer to your question ...i will get back to you at a later date ..where iam at i dont have my load data but i will answer later.

 

[Roughwater]

Hi,

Interesting article and the assment of it. Not sure I came away with the same conclusion some of you did. I reload both Barnes and Berger bullets and like them both as well as the Nosler Ballistic tips. I have used Barnes bullets longer than I have the Bergers and get great accuracy out of the barnes TTSX bullets I reload in 270, 270 WSM, 30-06 and 243 Win without much worry with bullet seating depth. However, I find bullet seating depth seems a bit more critical when loading the Berger VLD hunting bullets. However, the Berger VLD's require no sortng by weight as they are extreamly weight consistant.
Of course with any bullet twist rate is can be a factor as well but maybe slightly more so with the Bergers.

In reading the 100 yard accuracy results posted by Barnes I can believe their results but I also know the VLD's with a little tweeking are capable of much better accuracy than the VLD test bullets Barnes used.

I also have to wonder which VLD bullet Barnes used in the Gelletin Test. The VLD hunting bullet or the VLD Target Bullet as I'm sure there is a differance in their capability to penatrate bone and geletin.

I have had a lot personal experience hunting with both the Barnes TTSX and the Ballistic Tips. Both the Ballistic Tips and the Barnes TTSX are very accurate but I have to say for shots under 250 yds I better trust the Barnes in the high velocity rifles I shoot. Most deer I have shot with the Barnes don't run at all, they just drop. The few that do, don't run far and I always get a pass thru.

The Ballistic tips do somewhat explode on impact using high velocity bullets which at times can be good as they can make a huge hole but sometimes they don't achive great penetration. However I do appreciate the more reasonable price per bullet and good accuracy of the Ballistic Tip.
If I were using a lower velocity bullet like a 30-30 or shooting a very heavy bullet per caliber or shooting at Very long range I might better trust the Ballitic tips. I feel like at a lower velocity expansion would be less violent , and better chance of good expansion and less fragmentation.

I can't really comment on the Berger VLD hunting bullets for hunting use but I can see some great potential there as I have worked up some very accurate loads and hope to test them in the 2011 hunting season.

I keep an open mind to the heavy slower bullet/VS the faster lighter bullet. I've seen where velocity kills and I believe the Barnes Bullets are better suited to high velocity than some. In the south where I hunt, the deer are generally smaller and many hunters have gone to lighter calibers with great success. My friends wife hunts with with a 243 winchester and shoots many deer a year most dropping upon impact but she is a crack shot and 80% of her shots are under a 200 yrds. She's only lost one deer in many years of hunting which she shot with a ballistic tip that hit the shoulder. They later found the deer but they no longer hunt with the standard ballistic tips.

I'll try to post something this fall/winter on my success or lack of using the Berger VlD hunting bullets. I am also hoping to go on a western Elk hunt this year with a friend and may use the Berger VLD's. Shooting distances may be greater out west than what I'm used to in this area and I believe they could work well at long range but I'll definitely bring along some Barnes bullets as well.

Terry

 

[extreme]

roughwater
I have used barnes tx/tsx and or smk,s on elk size game for a long time..i use one of my 338 cal. for elk ..they are tough animals and iam sure there are people on this site that have killed more elk then me but i have shot my share at 200 yards usually around 600 yd,s and my longest kill at just under a 1000 yards..
My limited use of bergers says they work great punching holes in paper but not threw animals..you can argue (shock )all you want, but sometimes a bad shot on a elk and no blood trail means a lost animal or a long day looking for it.With the barnes or the smk,s i get either a blood trail or a dead on the spot animal with a big hole on the other side.
There are some gies on this site testing the new 300 gr. bergers.I dont know shawn carlock personally but if after his testing is complete and IF he say they work it may be worth a try..I dont care to mess around with bullet depth as i guess he is doing right now.i dont find that to be a issue with others..i do sometimes sort by weight but not for hunting bullets.
Iam not answering your post to cut berger apart.they make a fine product only not for me ..i will wait for more test results from shawn but for now just like you posted dont leave your barnes behind,because the only way to get a blood trail is threw a hole.

 

[Guy M]

Roughwater, welcome to the site!

Seems you have formulated your opinions on various bullets through experience of your own, and observing the results from other hunters. Excellent! Bullets do have different characteristics, and we're living in a time when we have many choices of good bullets for different applications.

Let's hope we all meet with success this coming season.

Regards, Guy

 

[Roughwater]

Hi Extreme, and Guy and thanks for the welcome and for your info on this issue. I was also glad to see Eric's post as well. I have used Barne's bullets at mostly ranges under 200 yrds and I wasn't sure how effective they were at long range but your post's have helped reassure me they probably are plenty effective out to as far as I would trust myself to take a shot.

One thing that has helped keep my interest in Berger bullets is that the company is not disattached from it's customers like so many companies are. When I had questions about bullet load data and e-mailed their website, Walt Berger personally emailed me back with the info I requested and with other follow up e-mails. What other company does that? I guarentee not many and again right here on this website on this thread, Eric Steckler chimes in. This tells me that the company cares and is personally involved. I'm not likely to quit using Barnes bullets but I'm sure going to give the Bergers my most serious try at hunting. Like I said earlier, I like the fact that the Berger's are very weight consitant, morso than any other bullet I have ever used. Add that to the fact they have a longer streamlined profile compared with other bullets and it just feels like a great combination for accuracy. My main concern now is how they perform on game. I plan to try them myself this fall and build some for a couple friends who take a lot of deer and I'll report our personal experience with them, thumbs up or thumbs down.

Terry

 

[SpencerSS]

This is what Barnes are good for:

222rem 53TSX at 3200fps@ muzz

I had to shoot through a lot of heavy bone to stop this one under the skin

 

[SpencerSS]

I guess it was the Tip on the TTSX, or something, that allowed them to break the petals off those bullets. I've never 'broken' a TSX or TTSX. The above went in 53gn, and came out 53gn; and that's trough both leg bones and a scapula of a 120lbs Whitetail doe. The only Barnes bullets I can think of that I've nocked petals off, were the 110XPBs designed for 38spl, that I pushed out of a 357mag Rifle at 2400fps. Even then, they only shed 1 or 2, and retained the body of the bullet.


The test on Barnes don't seem to show there point to well. The Noslers and Bergers seem to do pretty good for passing through bone, both at 100 and 1000. The TTSXs penetrate well, but I wonder about the BC issue. I doubt the Barnes bullets have as high a BC as the Berger VLDs, no matter how you measure it.

 

[extreme]

Roughwater.

the pictures say it all. i see the same results with my barnes loads even on elk size animals..even a bad shot for whatever reason drills a blood trail hole so you wont loose the animal...So until i see proof from shawn or other gies testing the new bergers on elk and putting holes in them such as these i will stick to barnes.