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This is a thread for discussion of the article, Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets, By Eric Stecker. Here you can ask questions or make comments about the article.
Optimizing Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets By Eric Stecker
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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
I was already good looking enough but with the Berger hat I am just down right irresistible.
You need to have a talk with Brian. I told him not to downgrade the BC on the 6mm 115 Berger but the child just couldn't resist fixing what wasn't broke. That's the kind of thing you get from a Penn State engineer. Next time get one from the home of Bear Bryant.
550 yards Twofer on hogs
600 yards antelope doe.
picture not uploaded being as it was too short range to count.
686 yards - Got me the Berger hat.
800 yards
860 yards --- antelope
see last picture - one of them is it.
1140 yards
A truck load !!!
You need to have a talk with Brian. I told him not to downgrade the BC on the 6mm 115 Berger but the child just couldn't resist fixing what wasn't broke. That's the kind of thing you get from a Penn State engineer. Next time get one from the home of Bear Bryant.
550 yards Twofer on hogs
600 yards antelope doe.
picture not uploaded being as it was too short range to count.
686 yards - Got me the Berger hat.
800 yards
860 yards --- antelope
see last picture - one of them is it.
1140 yards
A truck load !!!
Moman
Well-Known Member
Eric, that was a well written article with good information. I have been thinking about trying the Bergers in a 300 WM but was under the belief that they had to be up against the rifling. After reading this, I think I will give them a try. A couple questions though.
1). What bullet do you recomend I try in this 300 WM for long range Elk and Deer?
2). Do you mind briefly describing what benefits in bullet construction I would gain using this bullet? I understand the VLD concept and have read the BC on these, but I have always thought these were more of a target bullet similar to a match grade. I currently use a 180 Accubond.
Thanks!
1). What bullet do you recomend I try in this 300 WM for long range Elk and Deer?
2). Do you mind briefly describing what benefits in bullet construction I would gain using this bullet? I understand the VLD concept and have read the BC on these, but I have always thought these were more of a target bullet similar to a match grade. I currently use a 180 Accubond.
Thanks!
ojr
Member
Hello, after joining awhile ago and watching this will be my first post.
I have been contemplating using the bergers for some time, I have an 85 sako in 6.5x55 that I am currently using 140gr Amax's in to shoot on steel out fair way. I have reached 700 with no real problems but wish to go as far as 1000-1200.
I still need to tweake the load a little and at the moment am loading to an over all lenght of 3.2" with room to spare. The Sako seems to have a very long throat.
A] I was wondering what you thought of using your 130gr bullet for this, starting with your formula on what I read in the article, the hunters one, as I wish to use the load for coyote sized animals as well, [ not at 1000 though]
B] I am using Vihtavuori n560 currently, would this be a good powder for your bullet.?
Thanks.
I have been contemplating using the bergers for some time, I have an 85 sako in 6.5x55 that I am currently using 140gr Amax's in to shoot on steel out fair way. I have reached 700 with no real problems but wish to go as far as 1000-1200.
I still need to tweake the load a little and at the moment am loading to an over all lenght of 3.2" with room to spare. The Sako seems to have a very long throat.
A] I was wondering what you thought of using your 130gr bullet for this, starting with your formula on what I read in the article, the hunters one, as I wish to use the load for coyote sized animals as well, [ not at 1000 though]
B] I am using Vihtavuori n560 currently, would this be a good powder for your bullet.?
Thanks.
LRHWAL
Well-Known Member
I've been shooting the 210gr VLD in my 300 WM for several years now.
I only managed to get decent results at around 0.01 jammed (as I recall I was trying jump up to around 0.02). But I wasn't really happy with this - I seemed to get fliers (not necessarily the reason for it, but I wonder whether very slight deating depth variation isn't totally critical with a jam which is why more jam was more consistent than slightly jammed or just touching) and I pulled a bullet unloading once and had endless problems for the rest of the day's hunt and ended up borrowing a rifle.
I persisted because I was very happy with the on game performance of the bullet.
After chatting with a fairly well known national level LR shooter very recently I tried a jump that I thought would never work - around the 0.04 recommended. It's early days, but I've managed a few .4 and .5 MOA groups at 200m and it seems the fliers are gone, even in the larger groups i.e. they are "just bigger" not tight with a flyer. I intend to tweak with charge here and not COAL.
In short I can say that this really seems to work although I still need to do more work on it. I can also run a bit quicker with less pressure with the jump, although it seems my best results are so far around 2780 - 2820 or so.
I only managed to get decent results at around 0.01 jammed (as I recall I was trying jump up to around 0.02). But I wasn't really happy with this - I seemed to get fliers (not necessarily the reason for it, but I wonder whether very slight deating depth variation isn't totally critical with a jam which is why more jam was more consistent than slightly jammed or just touching) and I pulled a bullet unloading once and had endless problems for the rest of the day's hunt and ended up borrowing a rifle.
I persisted because I was very happy with the on game performance of the bullet.
After chatting with a fairly well known national level LR shooter very recently I tried a jump that I thought would never work - around the 0.04 recommended. It's early days, but I've managed a few .4 and .5 MOA groups at 200m and it seems the fliers are gone, even in the larger groups i.e. they are "just bigger" not tight with a flyer. I intend to tweak with charge here and not COAL.
In short I can say that this really seems to work although I still need to do more work on it. I can also run a bit quicker with less pressure with the jump, although it seems my best results are so far around 2780 - 2820 or so.
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
Moman,
Thank you for your kind comments. The best all around 30 cal bullet for elk and deer at long range (an assumption based on your posting on this forum) is the 210 gr VLD. This gives you the most versatility. Admittedly, if you have a shot at a 130 pound deer at 200 yards you will get a massive exit wound but the deer will be on the ground.
Having said that you can achieve success with our lighter (175 gr to 190 gr) bullets on elk. The 210 gr VLD is the best choice if you know you will be shooting at long range (600 yards or more).
All Berger Hunting VLD bullets act differently upon impact than traditional (high weight retention, deep penetration) hunting bulelts. Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" of hide and bone. After the bullet is through this tough surface of the animal it starts to shed its weight. Depending on impact velocity 40% to 80% of the bullets weight will be distributed inside the animal as fragmentation.
This is why our bullets are so deadly on a wide variety of game sizes, bullet weights and impact velocities. This fragmentation deep inside the animal combined with hydrostatic shock tears a wide and deep wound channel inside the vital area of the animal. This tremendous internal destruction usually puts the animal into shock which is why they drop quickly. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet will quickly succumb to loss of blood pressure or major organ failure.
Once the bullet starts to expand (2" to 3" inside the animal) the wound channel will be anywhere from 13" to 18" long. This is definately enough internal damage to put down the largest North American game. Depending on the size of the game you may or may not have an exit wound. Those who like blood trails so they can track the game may not like this but if the animal can't go more than 50 yards then why do you need a blood trail?
On the other hand, those animal that are small enough that you will have an exit wound have far more energy dumped into their internals than they would have if shot by a high weight retension bullet. These traditional bullets are great for going all the way through medium sized game but most of the energy is spent on the ground or in the tree behind the animal.
Ojr,
The 6.5mm 130 gr Hunting VLD is a very popular bullet. Frankly, if you are shooting out to 1,000 yards then the 140 gr is the better option but you mentioned that you won't shoot that far for coyotes.
To get the best answer for your "which bullet is best for a particular application" the person to ask is Bryan Litz at [email protected]. He can provide a very thorough answer which takes into consideration all your circumstances. I will send him a link to this thread so he can answer publicly.
I am a shot range BR shooter who has many years of experience with the 6PPC and which powders work best for this case. To get the best information on which powder is best for yours (and pretty much every) case contact Kevin Thomas at [email protected]. There are a handful of folks on the planet that have as much trigger time with as many components as Kevin has used over the last two decades. I'll send him a link to this thread as well.
Lrhwal,
Sounds like you are on your way to dialing it in. I definately recommend the 4 COAL test listed in the article. It seems like a lot to do at first but if you take the time to load at these 4 different COAL you will quickly find out where your sweet spot is in your rifle. I believe you will soon get the flyers and the large round groups out of your results.
Regards,
Eric
Thank you for your kind comments. The best all around 30 cal bullet for elk and deer at long range (an assumption based on your posting on this forum) is the 210 gr VLD. This gives you the most versatility. Admittedly, if you have a shot at a 130 pound deer at 200 yards you will get a massive exit wound but the deer will be on the ground.
Having said that you can achieve success with our lighter (175 gr to 190 gr) bullets on elk. The 210 gr VLD is the best choice if you know you will be shooting at long range (600 yards or more).
All Berger Hunting VLD bullets act differently upon impact than traditional (high weight retention, deep penetration) hunting bulelts. Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" of hide and bone. After the bullet is through this tough surface of the animal it starts to shed its weight. Depending on impact velocity 40% to 80% of the bullets weight will be distributed inside the animal as fragmentation.
This is why our bullets are so deadly on a wide variety of game sizes, bullet weights and impact velocities. This fragmentation deep inside the animal combined with hydrostatic shock tears a wide and deep wound channel inside the vital area of the animal. This tremendous internal destruction usually puts the animal into shock which is why they drop quickly. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet will quickly succumb to loss of blood pressure or major organ failure.
Once the bullet starts to expand (2" to 3" inside the animal) the wound channel will be anywhere from 13" to 18" long. This is definately enough internal damage to put down the largest North American game. Depending on the size of the game you may or may not have an exit wound. Those who like blood trails so they can track the game may not like this but if the animal can't go more than 50 yards then why do you need a blood trail?
On the other hand, those animal that are small enough that you will have an exit wound have far more energy dumped into their internals than they would have if shot by a high weight retension bullet. These traditional bullets are great for going all the way through medium sized game but most of the energy is spent on the ground or in the tree behind the animal.
Ojr,
The 6.5mm 130 gr Hunting VLD is a very popular bullet. Frankly, if you are shooting out to 1,000 yards then the 140 gr is the better option but you mentioned that you won't shoot that far for coyotes.
To get the best answer for your "which bullet is best for a particular application" the person to ask is Bryan Litz at [email protected]. He can provide a very thorough answer which takes into consideration all your circumstances. I will send him a link to this thread so he can answer publicly.
I am a shot range BR shooter who has many years of experience with the 6PPC and which powders work best for this case. To get the best information on which powder is best for yours (and pretty much every) case contact Kevin Thomas at [email protected]. There are a handful of folks on the planet that have as much trigger time with as many components as Kevin has used over the last two decades. I'll send him a link to this thread as well.
Lrhwal,
Sounds like you are on your way to dialing it in. I definately recommend the 4 COAL test listed in the article. It seems like a lot to do at first but if you take the time to load at these 4 different COAL you will quickly find out where your sweet spot is in your rifle. I believe you will soon get the flyers and the large round groups out of your results.
Regards,
Eric
Eric,
Well darn,
I just ordered 3 boxes of 30 190 Hunting VLD's for long range hunting out to a 1000.
Am I r-e-a-l-l-y going to miss out that much by not using a 210? I bought the 190's wanting to
be able to load my magazine, an FN SPR 300 WSM. I'm shooting 185's now at over 3,000 with RL 17.
Outside of a higher BC, what if any difference in terminal effect will there be between the
two bullets? Being how the VLD works on large game would impact velocity really make a
difference after all everything penetrates two inches then violenty opens up.
Thank you for the write up and I look forward to your reply.
Well darn,
I just ordered 3 boxes of 30 190 Hunting VLD's for long range hunting out to a 1000.
Am I r-e-a-l-l-y going to miss out that much by not using a 210? I bought the 190's wanting to
be able to load my magazine, an FN SPR 300 WSM. I'm shooting 185's now at over 3,000 with RL 17.
Outside of a higher BC, what if any difference in terminal effect will there be between the
two bullets? Being how the VLD works on large game would impact velocity really make a
difference after all everything penetrates two inches then violenty opens up.
Thank you for the write up and I look forward to your reply.
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
Su37,
The difference is minimal and your 190 gr will work just fine. I have asked Bryan Litz to respond to your question with more specifics.
Regards,
Eric
The difference is minimal and your 190 gr will work just fine. I have asked Bryan Litz to respond to your question with more specifics.
Regards,
Eric
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
su37,
Eric asked me to address your question about the 190 vs the 210 VLD for long range hunting. As Eric stated, the 210 will be better, but of course you're interested in how much better.
When loaded to the same chamber pressures, the 190's will achieve the same muzzle energy and a higher muzzle velocity than the 210's. Of course you're not interested in the conditions at the muzzle, it's the downrange performance that you care about.
So how does the downrange performance stack up? Well, considering that the heavier, higher BC bullet (the 210 in this case) will retain velocity better than the lighter bullet, at some point the 210 will be going faster than the 190. At that point (probably around 600-800 yards), the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet, and they do so more as the range increases, and the advantage is more important for larger animals. So for medium sized deer at 400 yards, there's probably no detectable difference between the two bullets. But for larger animals at greater ranges, the lethality of the heavier bullet becomes a more important asset.
The one advantage that the lighter bullet has over the heavier one is a flatter trajectory. The 190's will achieve a higher muzzle velocity, and will have less drop than the 210's for a great distance. Resistance to wind deflection will favor the heavier 210 at all ranges.
Up to about 600 yards, you won't be able to tell a big difference in performance (external or terminal). As the range goes beyond that, the advantage begins to grow in favor of the heavier bullet. I would say that if you're looking to kill a large animal like an elk or moose at 1000 yards, the 210's would provide a considerable advantage over the 190's. Medium sized deer at 600, not much difference. In between is gray area.
The 210's have the same ogive as the 190's so they would load to the same OAL (for magazine considerations).
You'll find there is a lot of gray area with bullet lethality. There's simply no reliable way to calculate death. I've shared with you my understanding of how the 190 compares to the 210, and I would encourage you to gather as much information as possible from all sources (Kevin...) to help you decide if you're comfortable with the 190's, or if you want to step up to the 210's. You won't be WRONG for using the 190's, but depending on your application, you might be giving yourself a little better chance at a more efficient kill with the 210's.
One thing that might make your mind up for you is that the 210's require a 1:11" twist, where as the 190's are stable in a 1:12". So if your barrel is a 1:12" than the choice is easy!
Good luck and take care,
-Bryan
By the way, are you a Russian fighter jet enthusiast, or is your handle a coincidence?
Eric asked me to address your question about the 190 vs the 210 VLD for long range hunting. As Eric stated, the 210 will be better, but of course you're interested in how much better.
When loaded to the same chamber pressures, the 190's will achieve the same muzzle energy and a higher muzzle velocity than the 210's. Of course you're not interested in the conditions at the muzzle, it's the downrange performance that you care about.
So how does the downrange performance stack up? Well, considering that the heavier, higher BC bullet (the 210 in this case) will retain velocity better than the lighter bullet, at some point the 210 will be going faster than the 190. At that point (probably around 600-800 yards), the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet, and they do so more as the range increases, and the advantage is more important for larger animals. So for medium sized deer at 400 yards, there's probably no detectable difference between the two bullets. But for larger animals at greater ranges, the lethality of the heavier bullet becomes a more important asset.
The one advantage that the lighter bullet has over the heavier one is a flatter trajectory. The 190's will achieve a higher muzzle velocity, and will have less drop than the 210's for a great distance. Resistance to wind deflection will favor the heavier 210 at all ranges.
Up to about 600 yards, you won't be able to tell a big difference in performance (external or terminal). As the range goes beyond that, the advantage begins to grow in favor of the heavier bullet. I would say that if you're looking to kill a large animal like an elk or moose at 1000 yards, the 210's would provide a considerable advantage over the 190's. Medium sized deer at 600, not much difference. In between is gray area.
The 210's have the same ogive as the 190's so they would load to the same OAL (for magazine considerations).
You'll find there is a lot of gray area with bullet lethality. There's simply no reliable way to calculate death. I've shared with you my understanding of how the 190 compares to the 210, and I would encourage you to gather as much information as possible from all sources (Kevin...) to help you decide if you're comfortable with the 190's, or if you want to step up to the 210's. You won't be WRONG for using the 190's, but depending on your application, you might be giving yourself a little better chance at a more efficient kill with the 210's.
One thing that might make your mind up for you is that the 210's require a 1:11" twist, where as the 190's are stable in a 1:12". So if your barrel is a 1:12" than the choice is easy!
Good luck and take care,
-Bryan
By the way, are you a Russian fighter jet enthusiast, or is your handle a coincidence?
Bryan thank you and Eric thank you as well for your response to my question.
It would be obvious that the heavier higher BC 210 would buck the wind better
than the 190 that I understand.
Bryan wrote,
"the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet,"
Bryan, I can see the above being a factor if I was using a bonded or partition or X bullet and I
wanted deep, deep penetration or a complete pass through.
But when it comes to your bullets and how they behave terminally. As far as momentum I have my strong doubts that weight matters as each weight will behave consistently the same regardless, the bullets will penetrate 2" and then have a grenade effect.
Momentum comes into play when you want penetration of the animal. Bergers are not
built to do that.
Guys, I am thinking that because of HOW your bullets all behave the same that it would not matter if
I was shooting a 6.5/140 or a 30/210. The final result is going to be the same a dead animal.
Is there a velocity that your bullets will not penetrate and then open up?
It would be obvious that the heavier higher BC 210 would buck the wind better
than the 190 that I understand.
Bryan wrote,
"the heavier bullet will have more weight and more velocity meaning it will have more momentum and more KE. These things all favor the heavier bullet,"
Bryan, I can see the above being a factor if I was using a bonded or partition or X bullet and I
wanted deep, deep penetration or a complete pass through.
But when it comes to your bullets and how they behave terminally. As far as momentum I have my strong doubts that weight matters as each weight will behave consistently the same regardless, the bullets will penetrate 2" and then have a grenade effect.
Momentum comes into play when you want penetration of the animal. Bergers are not
built to do that.
Guys, I am thinking that because of HOW your bullets all behave the same that it would not matter if
I was shooting a 6.5/140 or a 30/210. The final result is going to be the same a dead animal.
Is there a velocity that your bullets will not penetrate and then open up?
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Your understanding of the behavior of the berger bullets is not quite right. The bullets have a hollow point and it takes some depth before the tip tears back and expansion begins. The expansion is rapid at that point for a while and then as the bullet slows the expansion seems to stabilize and the bullet then penetrates a ways depending on how much sectional density you have. The more sectional density, then the more momentum remaining and therefore the more penetration.
The twofer on the hogs is a good example. The bullet struck a large male hog in the shoulder and passed all the way through it and then struck the pelvis of the grown sow and broke through it and exited. This means that with a high sectional density bullet you can get a lot of penetration while breaking a lot of bones. That bullet was launched at 3250 fps which is very near dusting velocity for the Bergers and yet it did not grenade even though the jacket was at very near what many believe to be stress failure.
ojr
Member
Thankyou both Eric and Bryan, answers most appreciated.
Cheers
Ojr.
Cheers
Ojr.
This is Eric's reply and my understanding of how Berger's work.
"Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" of hide and bone. After the bullet is through this tough surface of the animal it starts to shed its weight. Depending on impact velocity 40% to 80% of the bullets weight will be distributed inside the animal as fragmentation."
So we see 2" to 3" and the bullet starts coming apart. And then according to impact velocity
that determines how much bullet fragmentation we see which is 40% to 80%
Buffalobob says
"The more sectional density, then the more momentum remaining and therefore the more penetration."
So, if we have a 6.5/140/.287 SD bullet with the same SD as a 30/190/.286 SD bullet.
Both will penetrate the same then according to Buffalobob. Since both have the same SD.
If so,
Weight is not a factor then is it, or is it?
At 1000 yards there is less than 20 fps difference between the 190 and 210 VLD'S.
Then according to Eric, since they have the same impact speed their fragmentation
will be the same ratio BUT spreed out deeper with the 210 due to a higher SD. according to Bob.
It also obviously has more fragments to spew in it's path. 12 more grains at 40% for each bullet.
Is that a lot? I don't know.
Also, how much deep penetration is needed to kill an elk.
Both will penetrate and start expanding after 2"
I have to wonder how far in inches that 190 VLD will penetrate while fragmenting.
"That bullet was launched at 3250 fps which is very near dusting velocity for the Bergers and yet it did not grenade even though the jacket was at very near what many believe to be stress failure."
It should have to be consistent with Berger's statements.
All said,
I don't put much stock in SD which changes with bullet impact and KE which is just paper energy.
Just my musings.
And btw, I'll be using Bergers for hunting.
"Upon impact the VLD will penetrate 2" to 3" of hide and bone. After the bullet is through this tough surface of the animal it starts to shed its weight. Depending on impact velocity 40% to 80% of the bullets weight will be distributed inside the animal as fragmentation."
So we see 2" to 3" and the bullet starts coming apart. And then according to impact velocity
that determines how much bullet fragmentation we see which is 40% to 80%
Buffalobob says
"The more sectional density, then the more momentum remaining and therefore the more penetration."
So, if we have a 6.5/140/.287 SD bullet with the same SD as a 30/190/.286 SD bullet.
Both will penetrate the same then according to Buffalobob. Since both have the same SD.
If so,
Weight is not a factor then is it, or is it?
At 1000 yards there is less than 20 fps difference between the 190 and 210 VLD'S.
Then according to Eric, since they have the same impact speed their fragmentation
will be the same ratio BUT spreed out deeper with the 210 due to a higher SD. according to Bob.
It also obviously has more fragments to spew in it's path. 12 more grains at 40% for each bullet.
Is that a lot? I don't know.
Also, how much deep penetration is needed to kill an elk.
Both will penetrate and start expanding after 2"
I have to wonder how far in inches that 190 VLD will penetrate while fragmenting.
"That bullet was launched at 3250 fps which is very near dusting velocity for the Bergers and yet it did not grenade even though the jacket was at very near what many believe to be stress failure."
It should have to be consistent with Berger's statements.
All said,
I don't put much stock in SD which changes with bullet impact and KE which is just paper energy.
Just my musings.
And btw, I'll be using Bergers for hunting.
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