Allen Mag Shooters Group

[hoghound]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Roy, so you are saying:

i @ y
y x 1m = tmy
i / tmy = tmoa
tmoa x C4 = tc

I'm brain dead after all that cyferin. I need a crash course in MOA for a dummy (me). Don't know why I can't grasp how many 1/4 clicks of MOA to inches needed to be moved to 1/4 MOA total clicks. Now I an confusing myself again just trying to explain. For example: 1MOA = 1.047. So if you divide 1.047 by 4 you get .26175 which rounded to .262. So, I know I need to move 48". So I (dummy) would think you would take the inches (48) divide that by .262 cause that's what a 1/4MOA click would be I think, and you get 183.2061. Noway A. OK, so let's try this 48"x.262=12.576, is that the total clicks, don't think so, now I'm really F'ed up.


Tim /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Tim/Tx it gets worse than that .....

From your above example shooting at 1150.

1 MOA @ 1150 is 1.047*11.50 or about 12"

Then 48/12= 4MOA or 16 clicks into the wind.

Here's one for ya.

Went to a yote spot w/son yesterday.
After the Dodge crew cab drove thru at about the 365 yard mark we decided to punch holes in snow (bustin rocks with a flair)

Seeing as how I hadn't shot the big girl beyond 500 meters I figured I see how the drop chart was working.
Was shooting the 169s @ 3250 and say 7 MPH cross wind.

I ranged a certain snow pattern with a rock in it at 634 yds. Clicked up 6.5 MOA per dope chart. Ignored the wind.

Son was spotting. First shot way low /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Couldn't be? Second shot, same spot? Clicked up 2 MOA. Mind went to mush (read no calculator /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) Next shot still low. Ripper 'er up to 9 MOA. Shot was about 2" high (grooved the snow on top of the rock. We figured the rock was about the size of a clay pigeon maybe a bit larger)

No more clicks for the next shot, just got serious with the hold and trigger brake. Smack - dead on. Smiles cause I hit it. Frowns cause the drop chart was 2.5MOA off. (more on this later)

Sons turn. Shooting the 270 Win w/140 Hornadys @ 3200.

He asked what the range was, again. Our target was between the tops of two junipers. The Leica sighting square just fit in the opening. I told him 634 yds just as I got a 771 reading /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif After more careful ranging the target was @ 771yds, 134 yds beyond the trees.

Guess what. Drop chart said 9.1 MOA and I had to adjust to 9.0 to hit the target. I'd say drop chart is pretty much on . And that's using a bc of 0.74.

The very interesting part was I did not hold for the wind and it was blowing that little 140gr bullet a bunch. but once he learned how much affect the wind had he hit the target also.

Twas a good day, except for the Dodge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[41mag]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Hey Roy,

I think Tim is about reaching info overload on the scope adjustments. He has gone from brain twisting the Mil dots in one scope to another using a ballistic plex but in IPHY, to now trying to calculate the drops using knobs and bars. He is a math whiz and this is eating him up.

Kinda fun to watch though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Yeah, I just gone through all of that Mils etc finally have gone with clicking. Just trying to remember to reset for different range......

Used to think mil dots were the cats meow but what ya really want is reticle in mils and knobs in mils or both in MOA. MOA would be much much easier.

Hey I can't get my 195s shooting worth a squat. The 169s are doing bug holes @ 200 and CD size things @ nearly 800.

195s are consistently inconsistent. Have gone through most of a hundred and have nothing shootable yet.

 

[hoghound]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Roy. try some WC872 with those 195's. Me and Mike ordered some WCC860 to try out. I'm still unhappy with the performance of the H-869. I was talking to a reliable source on the surplus powders today and he says the H-869 is most likely from the Nam era. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tim

 

[Jon A]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

[ QUOTE ]
I was talking to a reliable source on the surplus powders today and he says the H-869 is most likely from the Nam era. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I have a hard time believing that.

 

[hoghound]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

Jon, the feller I talked to was Jeff Bartlett @ 800-714-6348. Give him a call, he really seems to know his business about the different powders I was quizzing him over.

I was trying to get him to nail down a burn rate for WCCC-860, which was designed for the 50cal. as it looks close to the rate of AA-8700 which I am having good sucess with in my 270AM.

The problem he said with surplus powders is that there is overlaps in the burn rates depending on the lott you get. In other words a fast lott of WC872, which is listed to be slower than WCC-860 may actually burn faster than the faster listed powder WCC-860, and visa versa. I also ask him about H-869 and that is when he told me that he thinks it was W-869 left over from the Nam era and was used in the 20mm.

Give him a call and let's see if you get different info then I got, but that's what the man told me.

Later Tim

 

[Jon A]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

[ QUOTE ]
he thinks it was W-869 left over from the Nam era and was used in the 20mm.

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeff's a nice guy and I'm sure that is what he thinks. I don't see any data supporting it though--not enough to accuse Hodgdon of lying and fraud. It's supposed to be new production, not surplus.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: Well, I\'ll think I\'ll do what Kirby says from now on......

from the hodgdon web site
US 869® Shawnee Mission Kansas, Hodgdon Powder Company leads the way again by developing an outstanding 50 BMG propellant that offers significant advantages in many magnum rifle applications! US869 is a true magnum Spherical rifle powder that is superb with heavy bullets in big, overbore rifle cartridges. US869 is a dense propellant that allows the shooter to use enough powder to create maximum velocities in cartridges such as the 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum, 300 Remington Ultra Magnum, 30-378 Weatherby Magnum and others. US869 is superior in the 50 Caliber BMG where it yields high velocity and great accuracy with 750 to 800 grain projectiles. This is a fine 1000-yard match propellant! In addition, US869 is effected minimally by varying temperatures, a key feature for top competition and hunting accuracy.

Hodgdon's new US869 will be at dealers everywhere spring 2006. For complete US869 data check the new 2006 Hodgdon Annual Manual, visit www.hodgdon.com, call 913-362-9455 or write to Hodgdon Powder Company, 6231 Robinson, Shawnee Mission, KS 66202.
JS

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Allen Mag Shooters Group -In the interest of sharing info

This is either sharing useful information or revealing how much I thought I new but didn't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Sometimes I have to shake my head at myself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Learned a lesson about full length sizing the 270 AM.

I figured I'd be smarter than the average bear and use the same 3 matched cases for load development with WC 195s. I already had the load worked up for the 169s.

I fired those same three cases for most of a hundred rounds and wasn't any closer to a "load" than I was when I started. In fact all promising loads came in the first half of testing. That otta be a hint. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

As time went on the cases were harder and harder to chamber and harder and harder to extract. For instance a load that had no pressure signs early in development had to be extracted with good force. Sorry but it took that much for ol' Roy to figger there was a problem some place.

I measured the three cases against other newer cases and found no significant difference. As it turns out it doesn't take "much" difference to make a difference. This is my first experience with a cartridge such as the AMs.

I decided to adjust the sizing die until the cases would chamber comfortably. My orignal setting was to adjust the die down just until the case crunched just below the shoulder then adjust it the other way a bit. It turns out "a bit" doesn't cut it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif It was set too long and hardening and other things set in which make the cases not retract easily after firing, etc.

I think that that proper case sizing and there's not more than an 0.2 tenths of an inch of adjustment of the locking ring on the sizing die between slight case crunching and not.

The 169s are going 3250, smallest group (last one I shot before hitting the field) was mid 3s @ 300. W/a 300 yd zero, the drop chart called for 9.7 MOA @ 771yds but it took only 9 MOA + 1 Click to hit a CD at that distance 3 for 3 once I got the clicks right.

My son was shooting a 270 Win w/140s @ 3200 and I was amazed , as was he, with how much the wind affected his shots as compared to my. I wasn't holding for the wind and he dinked around quite a bit before he got it right but wind changes still got him.

The Nosler 150 Ballistic Tip is running 3478 FPS and 0.375" 200 yd group. (last group for hitting the field)

The 195 were running 3060 - 3125 FPS MV with many groups right around 1" @ 200 during my case sizing learning curve. Now that that's figured out, I'll get some more 195s and that'll be that.

 

[ss7mm]

Re: Allen Mag Shooters Group -In the interest of sharing info

[ QUOTE ]
fired those same three cases for most of a hundred rounds
In fact all promising loads came in the first half of testing.

[/ QUOTE ] 100/3= 33.3
33.3/2= 16.65
That's getting your money's worth out of the brass. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
As time went on the cases were harder and harder to chamber and harder and harder to extract
As it turns out it doesn't take "much" difference to make a difference
My orignal setting was to adjust the die down just until the case crunched just below the shoulder then adjust it the other way a bit. It turns out "a bit" doesn't cut it

[/ QUOTE ]


Hint #1


Can you say "work harden"??
Hint #2 - Scroll down to annealer

[ QUOTE ]
My son was shooting a 270 Win w/140s @ 3200 and I was amazed , as was he, with how much the wind affected his shots as compared to my

[/ QUOTE ]
BC - Sure makes a difference doesn't it??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Allen Mag Shooters Group -In the interest of sharing info

geez SS you're heartless /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Way to go, rub it in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

What frosts my butt is that I knew all of that stuff at one time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Another hint would have been the cracked neck but I just looked at it, scratched my knoggin and tossed it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif But that was not on one of those 3.)

BTW, in my rifle the WCs shoot better "on the lands" but not forced into them. The 150 Ballistic Tips like a 20K jump.

 

[NYLES]

Re: Allen Mag Shooters Group -In the interest of sharing info

Thanks to all of you.....I now understand what Kirby meant when he said "I think my 270 am would be the one for you" not a complete quote but pretty much what he said.

Now for some questions......

#1 what teh hell is a ULD RBBT? Ultra low drag round nose boattail? OK

#2 Who makes em? What do they cost?

#3 Why dont yall have some picks of ya rigs?

#4 Can you use 300RUM Nosler brass?

#5 Smoeone please explain to me what the corn meal meathod is?

#6 How long are your barrels in 270AM?

#7 Dumb? But do I need a brake?

#8 How much better do you like your 270AM over a 7RUM?

#9 Can you really sink yourself into this gun and enjoy it or is it a pain tahtll end up for sale or in the safe?
I love to tinker! How cool will it look in my 69 bronco?
In other words, the reloading isnt so intense that it takes the fun out? But I well understand you get what you earn.

#10 Go all out with new everything or let Kirby go to town on my 10 year old LSS?

I learned alot when I found this post.....Almost got my mind made up!

 

[royinidaho]

Re: Allen Mag Shooters Group -In the interest of sharing info

Here's for FYI & HTH. Hope there's no offense to the humor, it just one of those nights.....

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to all of you.....I now understand what Kirby meant when he said "I think my 270 am would be the one for you" not a complete quote but pretty much what he said.

Now for some questions......

#1 what teh hell is a ULD RBBT? Ultra low drag round nose boattail? OK Nope! ReBated Boat Tail - Its a good thing for more reasons than just the boat tail design.

#2 Who makes em? What do they cost?Richard Graves, Wildcat Bullets (google). Cost is about right. Shipping sux.

#3 Why dont yall have some picks of ya rigs? We don't want to gloat or be show offs....

#4 Can you use 300RUM Nosler brass? Yes and 7MM RUM too. 375 RUM may be a stretch or a shrink (pun)

#5 Smoeone please explain to me what the corn meal meathod is? Size 300s or 7MM rums to about the width of a dime short of full length resizing. That is, leave a bit of a ring at the base of the neck to maintain a slight bolt pressure upon chambering.

Prime with NON magnum primers.

Charge with 20 gr of Unique Fill the rest of the case w/corn meal. Shake it down. Refill. Top off with 1/4 square of toilet paper rolled into a ball and pack it in w/a 270 cal stick. Shoot 'em into the snow to clean the side walk (what I did, wife tho't I was nuts. Be careful the barrel will get hot. Keep it cool.

Also there will be a small black ring (burned cornmeal) on the case mouth. Be careful with removing the fired case so as to not leave little half moon shapes on the neck and case body. (Don't tell Kirby I said that) He warned me and of course I didn't listen....

#6 How long are your barrels in 270AM?30" not including brake

#7 Dumb? But do I need a brake?Recoil isn't a problem. You'll want one to assist w/marking (seeing) your hits. Its a big plus. An don't forget the coolness factor.

#8 How much better do you like your 270AM over a 7RUM?Not even in the same league. If Kirby or some others built the 7 RUM out of the same components as was used for the 270 AM, the average Joe wouldn't know the difference. But a 270 AM or 7AM owner sure would!

Also, a 277, 195 gr bullet has to have a better BC than a 284 200gr bullet (Eat your heart out buffalobob, if you read this far.

#9 Can you really sink yourself into this gun and enjoy it or is it a pain tahtll end up for sale or in the safe?I don't know how far one could sink one's self into it but I've considered sleeping with mine......LOL. As far as tinkering goes, if custom built there's no tinkering to do with the rifle itself.

Learning about resizing and taking reloading to another level is a whole nother matter. At least it was for me.

Shooting becomes the thing to do/learn real quickly. With the WC bullets w/their high BC and seemingly very good accuracy, reading the wind is less than half the problem as with regular bullets.
I love to tinker! How cool will it look in my 69 bronco? Let's see, two door. Yep, it'll look good, if you can fit it in. Mine's a pain in my HummerIV (94 Sidekick) Most cases aren't long enough for the 30+" bbl. Being the tinkerer I built my own drag bag/shooting mat. It works well for throwing the rifle in the back of the Zuki.
In other words, the reloading isnt so intense that it takes the fun out?No problem here. Cases are easy to form once you get over the silly looks you get from the cook when asked what you're doing with the corn meal. After fire forming, its pretty much just trim to even out the lengths and go to shootin.

#10 Go all out with new everything or let Kirby go to town on my 10 year old LSS? If it's to be a 270 AM then stick with the LSS action. I sent Kirby my ancient 721 ('06) and it came back a piece of shootin' craftmanship.

I learned alot when I found this post.....Almost got my mind made up!

[/ QUOTE ]



List of must haves:
Fluted barrel. Gotta love the looks of a fluted barrel. Plus you can get a larger contour with less weight.

Sako extractor. I can't believe how much more confidence I have in the rifle just because of that.

Single shot. - Just cause I like single shot and the bullets may be seated longer. If I'm going to make a 1K shot the odds of needing or getting a second or third one should be pretty darn slim, or I shouldn't have taken the 1K shot. Also an ADL stock is stiffer than an BDL stock. The stock I'll be building will be solid all the way through.

Trigger upgrade - I didn't have Kirby do that as I really liked the 721/722 triggers. But I should have upgraded the firing pin and spring though I could do that myself later.

Stock - up grade the stock. I did that but it was more of a lateral change. Being a tinkerer also, I like to do my own stock work but couldn't decide on a stock. I don't really like anything that's out there. So Kirby found a hot deal ($135) on a Bell and Carlson Carbilte sporter stock. He figured it would be stiff enough. It is but just barely. Kirby pillar and skim bedded it. The whole system is shooting WC 169s and Nosler 150 BTs into 0.3xx" @ 200.

I don't like the feel of the stock and have a design all laid out and will be building it soon.