6-284 long range antelope load

Dakor and fifty driver you men are a big help thanks. Ok had an interesting day at range today. So here is the data.Start at 2:30pm 80 degrees.Is up H4350 53.0 5 shots..649 group AV 3649 extrem spread 37 FPS Last degree of bolt lift was resistence.Is this hurting my rifle? 2nd up H1000 57.2 AV 3,370 extrem spread 86 Group size .543 no resistence in bolt lift. 3rd up H4831SC 56.0 AV 3,528 extrem spread 136 group size .417Slight resistence on last degree of bolt lift. 4th up WXR 54.0 AV 3,474 extrem spread 92 group. size .430.Slight resistence on bolt lift last degree.5th and last group of 5.H4350 Av 3,650 extrem spread 72 group size .318 but hard resistence on last degree of bolt rise just befor ejection.Also nothing new about this resistence,plus case holds new primer with no problem. So it sounds like H4350 is the load with the most merrit.Bullet is the hornady V-Max 87grian.So what do you think men? Thanks agian for your time
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Iron Worker sounds like your first load might be a good one(Depends on Pressure). Now when you say slight resistance when you lift the bolt did you check around the primer pocket area to see if there were any indents or ejector marks? The reason I ask is sometimes after you fire a round and it has a some powder residue on the neck or if the case is dirty to start with that can cause it as well. Did the round chamber tight to start with? Another way to tell if you are topping out a charge is chrony 1/2 a grain less then the one you want to shoot and if you are only gaining 10 to 20 fps more with the load that has the higher charge you are starting to top your load out. I would say as long as you are not getting ejector marks on the case and the bolt has very little resistance you should be ok.

[ 08-09-2004: Message edited by: dakor ]

[ 08-09-2004: Message edited by: dakor ]
 
As far as ejector marks.If you look in the light just right there is a slight shinny mark [slight is the key word] I polihed the brass as part of the reloading procedure.So clean brass.I think I'll try your suggestion about decreaseing by a 1/2" I also thought maybe seat the bullet 5 1,000s deaper.Or would that throw a monky wrench in the works?The last 5 rnds of the day was the best group I've ever shot.If you sight that load in fdor 3/4 high at 100 its a mere 4 1/2 low at 300yds.I once shot a yote at 341 yds with a load 300FPS slower and that dog looked like he was electrocuted.
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i found out today my uncles is a 12"twist..
that throws out most if not all the heavy bullets.. what do you all think is the heaviest i should even try... we tried 87vmax, 85gr sierra hpbt, 95nosler bt's 100gr sierra spbt, and 105 amax hit sideways.
that was all with rl22,retumbo(just for experiment) IMR4831, and H4831... best was around 1.5" at 100yds.. any suggestions?
Brien
 
Iron worker,

Interesting information, sorry I have not replied sooner, been a little crazy in the shop.

I guess you have to decide what is the most important to you for load characteristics.

As an extreme range shooter, meaning medium range shooting is +800 yards and serious stuff starts at 1000 yard and beyond.

I look first at E.S. numbers. For this type of shooting, 30 fps E.S. is on the top end of acceptibility. I much prefer to get then in the low teens or single digits.

BUT!!

Your rifle is not designed for this style of shooting. It takes advantage of the brute horsepower of the 6mm-284 round to drive light to medium weight bullets very fast.

I would say that if I had your rifle, I would say 600 yards would be my range limit using it with the 87 gr V-Max.

Please understand this is not a put-down to your rifle, 600 yard shooting is serious work that needs the best equipment available and precise machining and ammo.

It is the bullet that places your range limitations as well as load characteristics such as basic accuracy and consistancy.

Of the loads you listed, I would concentrate on the H-4350 load. 3650 fps is smoking fast. Remember you are getting 22-250 Rem velocity using a 55 gr pill but you are driving a 22 gr heavier bullet. This is siginificant.

Now for the bolt lift resistance, when do you feel this resistance? Is it on the first 1/3 of the bolts rotation when you start to lift the bolt from the locked position or is it when the extractor cam on the bolt handle engages the cam on the receiver.

If it is the extractor cam you will feel it at the very last amount of movement in the bolt life.

If your running the pressure to high, you will feel the bolt lift resistance increase from the very start because the case is pushing very hard back against the bolt face after firing.

If the initial bolt lift is normal and only the last part has a little resistance, this means that your cases are tight in the chameber but not against the bolt face.

Any round such as the 6mm-284 with its minimal body taper is going to be slightly harder to extract or at least to initially pop free of the chamber.

It could also be that you have a burr on your extractor cam either on your bolt or receiver. If you do, take a shone and carefully smooth the burr out and then use a high quality Moly grease between these surfaces to prevent or reduce further gauling.

This is a common problem with Rem 700 actions but an easy one to fix. I just range tested a 22-6mm AI this morning that I built that had the same problem. It is not generally a pressure problem but a mechanical problem like the burr presents.

That said, if you can not get at least 4 firings per case without the primer pockets getting looser, you need to reduce your load until youcan get this.

As far as the load testing, I would certainly go with the H-4350 for further testing.

What primer are you using. Sometimes trying a cooler or even slightly hotter primer will drop E.S. a measurable amount.

Also, play with the seating depth and this will ofter tune group size and consistancy.

Finally, again with the bolt lift. In a round like the 6mm-284, I recommend to my customers that after every 5 shots or so to either get new brass or have your cases properly annealed to restore their elasticity.

With the powder volume and heat generated by the 6mm-284, cases get work hardened pretty fast. This make the brass stiffer and it will not contract down after firing. This will create a false indication of high pressure as well and can often result in a shiny ejector mark on the case head.

This is one reason I do not recommend tight necked chamebers in such high intesnity rounds, most will not anneal theor cases after 5 firings and then the brass is really to hard to perform well..

Anyway, I would load up 15 rounds of that H-4350 load and shoot either 5 three shot groups or three 5 shot groups and average them to see what the load will really do. Also, a 15 round string will really tell you how consistant the load is also.

For your purposes, 72 fps E.S. is alot but not unusible by any means. I have a Ruger M77 VT that I rechambered to 22-250 AI that averages 110 fps spreads with its favorite load of H-380 under the 50 gr Ballistic Silvertip. Still it is a 1/4 moa rifle at 100 yards and will easily hold 80% hit ratios on P. Dogs out to the 400 yard line. This is fine for this rifle as it will not be used for anything much farther then this anyway.

Always try to get E.S. in the sub 30 fps range but do not give up on a tight grouping load for teh sake of E.S.'s. Especially for a rifle used at conventional varminting ranges.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Thank you very much Kirby for that Gold mine of information.Yes its on the very last degree of bolt lift.Yes its where the "cam" as you put it ingages the ejector.Primer I use is most of the time and this time is federal 210Match.Yes I think I'll stick with the H4350 powder.All do what you suggest.Whats the name of your business? Do you think a Sako 75 hunter in 22-250 is a good walking varminter? Remington just came out with thier version of a walking varminter called the 700 LV SF 6 3/4 LBs 22" medium varmint BBL piller bedded.Its $200.00 less than the Sako.Do you know anything about the REMington.
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Thanks a whole lot Larry
 
Iron worker,

First the name of my business is:

Allen Precision Shooting
#99 Stevenson Rd.
Fort Shaw, MT 59443

Personally, as an extreme accuracy minded gunsmith, I prefer the Remington but only on the basis of building on those actions.

As far as factory rifles go and using them as they come out of the box, the Sako rifles have no flies on them at all.

I like the looks of a Rem 700 over a Sako but I will freely admit that on average, the Sako would probably shoot a bit better then a stock Rem.

That said, with both rifles are tuned and tweaked to extract top accuracy potential, the Rem will win hands down simply because of the huge array of aftermarket products designed to increase the accuracy and consistancy of the Rem 700 rifles.

I have played with the 700 LV a little. The one I shot was a 22-250 as well. My feelings are that they are definately light and one could easily carry them a fair ways but I feel they are just a bit to light. I like the stability of a little weight, even in a walking varmitn rifle.

My personal walking varminter is a Ruger M77 stainless/laminated sporter with a 22" factoy barrel. loaded with the 40 gr Ballistic Tip at 4100 fps, it has few peers when it comes to popping critters up to the size of big coyotes out as far as I will ever need to shoot with such a rifle.

Still if I were to build myself a walking varminter, it would be a 700 short action with a 24" Lilja #2 or #3 contour and stocked in a Holland Signature laminated sporter stock.

The chambering would either be a 223 rem AI or the 22-250 AI.

The 700 LV I shot was a decent shooter, I did not measure groups but I would say it averaged less them moa which for such a light weight rifle is not all bad from the factory.

Still, from a factory list of rifle, the actual differences would be very slim comparing the Rem and the Sako. Its really a personal preference thing.

I would go with a little heavier rifle such as the standard 700 sporter over the LV. Just like a little more weight even for a walking rifle.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby (50)
 
Sorry I'm late, just saw this.

I get a sense, from my rifle and a couple others, that the 6x.284 doesn't give as much more velocity as you'd expect with heavy bullets and fast twists. A shooter I know has identical .243 AI and 6x.284 rifles set up with 1-8" twists for 105 to 107 grain bullets. The .243 AI only falls 50 fps or less short unless he chooses to start blowing primers out of the 6x.284 cases. I've heard of people trying to get high velocity out of fast twist, large capacity 6.5s having the same problems so I'm not overly surprised.

When you lighten the bullets a bit and slow the twist down, the 6x.284 starts to scream. I used to push 70 grain ballistic tips at just a hair under 3900 fps with a 1-14" twist, 58 (I think) grains of RL19, Federal 210M primers, and reformed Lapua 6.5x.284 cases. I'd sometimes change to the 65 grain VMAX with the same load, or increase the load by 1 grain and go to the 58 grain VMAX.

The 58 grain load was viscious for the first couple hundred yards. The 70 grain load was the most accurate. But I was using the 65 grain load when I made my longest hit, about 435 yards.

Anyway, I have a theory, untested, that to get top velocity out of a bullet as long as the 105 or 107 VLDs and a quick twist, you've got to use some sort of coating to overcome friction or you'll run into intermittent pressure excursions.
 
T.O.M.,

I would not totally disagree with your comments but I do feel that a properly fitted and chambered 6mm-284 will produce at least 150 fps more velocity the the 243 AI of equal barrel length and chamber quality.

The problem us that most loaders use the wrong powder for the 6mm-284 and as a result will not get full velocity potential.

THe large cased small bore rounds are a tricky bunch to get working to full velocity.

I recently built a 6mm-06 for a customer and when doing the barrel break in he also did some liad developement.

This rifle wore a 28.5" Kreiger barrel with a 1-9 twist. He was getting 4400 fps with the 55 gr Ballsitic Tips and getting groups in the 1's and 2's at that velocity.

The rifle was designed for the 105 gr A-Max and once the barrel was broke in be tested that round and was getting +3600 fps with groups in the 3's out of the 28.5" barrel.

I am getting 3550 fps out of my 6mm-284 with the 107 gr Mk with its 1-8 twist 30" Lilja barrel, using coated bullets.

I have never seen any 243 AI or 6mm AI get anything over 3400 and 3500 fps respectively out of a 28 to 30" barrel.

That is not to say it is not possible to get a very fast 243 AI and a slow barreled 6mm-284.

What velocities are your friend getting with both rounds? I would be curious if he is driving the 6mm-284 where he should be with the correct powders.

Like I said, the big cased small bores have a much narrower powder selection that will produce top velocities, especially compered to the 243 AI.

Another problem is if he is using Lapua 6.5-284 brass to form cases out of. This brass is very top quality but also very soft and he WILL burn it up in very few firings even with near top level loads.

THe Norma brass is the same way. Most Wby cases will gie up the ghost on the 2nd or 3rd firing with full tilt loads simply because teh brass is so soft.

I use Win brass only in my 6mm-284's. It is not as quality from the box as the European brass, but after an hour at the bench sorting and machining the win brass, it will make the foreign stuff look pretty bad.

It is also much harder brass and will survive much higher pressure loads for much longer. IT also machines much cleaner then the stickier, softer foreign brass and also cost half as much.

Hornady brass is alright but the Win brass is the stoutest I have used in the 284 class wildcats and all I will recommend for the reasons you list.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
I wasn't involved with the load development on those faster twist rifles so I can't say for sure firsthand, what was reported to me was velocities around 3200 fps when the primer pockets started opening up. That isn't very impressive. I have no idea what powders they were using. In the normal (whatever is trendy) way of things, they've pretty much moved from 6mm to 6.5mm for their longer range paper punchers now.
 
T.O.M.,

I agree the 6.5 is a more consistant extreme range performer, especially when dealing with a little wind.

3200 fps is about what I would say is normal velocity from a 26" or so barrel for the 243 AI using the 105-107 gr bullets.

3250 is extremely slow for a 6mm-284 with the same bullets even out of a 24" pipe.

I suspect your friend was using fast powders in hopes of accuracy improvements. Most of the BR guys will prefer powders on the fast burn rate saying they produce a slight edge in cutting group size.

This may full well be as the know more then I on the matter of BR matches but for big cased, small bored rounds, you are taking the legs out from under them if you use fast powders which are suited for much smaller case capacities.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
fiftydriver,dakor,T.O.M,ironworker,
I have been a dedicated 6-284 fan for several year's,your banter back and forth
has been very interesting if not disturbing
to say the least,I just have to state my
experience's. I have my second 6-284 with
it's second barrel on it a pac-nor 1-8"
29.5" 3 groove 1.200straight taper. I started
out shooting 105 berger's out of my new barrel but if I exceded 3200fps. they would
blow up.the lapua 105 scenars shot O.K. but
I finally decided on the sierra 107mk's
and have been happy ever since.the problem I
have is that I keep reading that somebody
is shooting these at 3600fps,what brand of
chronograph are you using ???? mine is an
oehler 35p that tell's me that my 6-284 .272
neck 50.0gr. rl22 lapua brass,gm210 primer
107gr MK is going 3348 s.d.8
Please tell me how to make mine go 3600
Even as slow as all mine have been I have
still had some varmint hunting success with
them,weekend before last me and my nephew
both attained our shooting goal's for the
summer by shooting a rockchuck at 1500yard's
I do have to admit that my nephew's 6.5-
284 did a slightly better job,that inspired
me to start a 338Lapua Imp.project for next
year's mile quest.
One question that I must ask of you,do you
have any hard carbon deposit issues with
your 6-284's and if so what is the easiest
way to clean it out.
1500yds. 64shot's 1 kill
 
Brian I have shot mine through several different chrony's and I had pretty much the same velocity maybe a 30 to 40 fps difference. A 6mm-284 will eat a 243 or a 6mm ackley for lunch and then some especialy with bullets over 85 grains or more. I have a 9 twist I can shoot 70gr Bergers at over 4000 fps and 80's at 3900fps and 100's at 3500+ FPS. The biggest mistake people make with a overbore cartridge like the 6mm-284 is they seat the bullet into the lands so you cannot load it as hot. If I seat my bullets into the lands I lose anywhere for 100fps to 150fps. I shoot mine off the lands 30 thousands and I do not see any difference in accuracy it is a quarter inch gun loaded on the lands or off the lands. If you cannot get at least 3400fps with a 100 gr bullet with out pressure you either are using the wrong powder or you have the bullets to deep in the lands. As for testing velocity I also check it by how low I am at 500 yards with a 300 yards zero that is one sure way to check your FPS.
 
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