6-284 long range antelope load

[dakor]

I shoot between 20 to 25 rounds then I clean with Butches Bore shine or Hoppe's #9. I have a really smooth bore so it does not really copper foul until you hit the 30 round mark or more. Varget is not temp sensitive that is why they made it I have used it on a 40 degree day and a 85 degree day shot the same. As for load density never figured it out but in my rifle I shoot 47 grains of it and it shoots 3 shots at 100 yards in the .2's with a MV of 3487fps. I just tried it because I was bored and had a can sitting there but it did work well in my rifle. For someone just starting out I would try R-22, IMR-4831, IMR-7828, or H-4831. One of those should fit the bill for bullets 85 grains or more. Iron Worker I also use the Fed 215 Primer in my 6-284 it seems to like it better then a standard primer.

 

[Iron Worker]

Dakor This is great.Now my self I've had good results with H1000.57,2 with Hornady 87 V-Max.Just under 1/2" Thats touching the lands.If I back the bullet off,would'nt I loose velocity?I guess I'll half to try it and find out.I've been useing Winchesters WXR but one over cast day and velocity was 200FPS down.Dang can't have that! So far the slower the powder the less flyers I get.When you say your getting groups in the .2s do you mean 1/4" MOA My best so far measureing center to center is about 3/8"If I can't hunt varmints with that kinda accuracy then its time to take up knitting& pingpong.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor,

Just wondering what kind of extreme spread are you getting over 10 shots using 47 gr of VarGet? How are these loads grouping at 1/4 mile?

This is the problem I have encountered with fast powders in large cases, to much velocity variation.

If your shooting at 100 yards for groups, extreme spread means nothing in a varmint hunting application.

I have a Ruger M77VT that was a 22-250 that shot groups into the 3's using the 50 gr Ballsitic Tip at 3875 fps. The funny thing is this load produces an extreme spread on average of 120 fps for ten shot strings. Still it groups very tight.

In hopes of cutting this number I printed the action, cut 1/2" off the breech and squared and trued the barrel shank and rechambered to the hot 22-250 AI.

Now I get the same 50 gr Ballistic Tip going 4090 fps and it groups in the 2 range but extreme spreads are still +100 fps.

In comparison, My 6mm-284 with the 107 gr Mk at just shy of 3600 fps only gets groups in the 1/2 moa range at 100 yards but with extreme spreads in the single digits to low teens.

At 500 yards, I have shot several sub 1" three shot groups which equates to less then 1/5 moa at that range. I have also made multipule one shot kills on chucks from 600 yards to my personal best one shot kill of 1055 yards with this rifle.

The test of any good load is at extended ranges this will tell all weaknesses of any load.


Good Shooting!!!

50

 

[dakor]

Fifty Like I said I tried it because I was bored and had a can there.

But to answer your question with speed varation the 3487fps is the average of 5 shots three of those were the same at 3499fps and the other two shots one was off around 25fps and the other I dont exactly remember. I shoot R-22 or IMR-4831 and I have shot 5 shot groups out to 500 yards with those two powders with groups measuring 1 1/4 to 1 1/2. I have never tried Varget at that distance but next time I shoot I will take that load and see how it does. I mean every gun is different I have seen a 30/06 shoot better at 600 yards with IMR-4064 then with H-4831?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor

Please do not feel like I am questioning your comments, its more like I am curious how the faster powder is performing in the large case.

I have just never experienced fine match quality results with such a fast powder in a large cased/small bored rifle.

I am not saying you are wrong, just curious since you have tested this powder.

I agree, every rifle and handgun perform a bit different, when all is going to hell in accuracy and consistancy, its often time to try something a little out of the norm and often it works well.

Just picking your brain on your testing. I will admit that when I develope loads for this type of round, I often do not even look to powders such as VarGet.

Since I am paid hourly for load developement and I charge my customers for componants, I select the best two or three loads that have worked in the past and start there.

In one of my rifles that I build, I generally get at least one of those that is a stellar load but in a full custom rifle, most loads shoot pretty well if its built correctly.

Please do not take offense if I came off as questioning you, just asking questions to learn from your testing.

Good Shooting!!!

50

 

[dakor]

Fifty I thought the same thing you did that fast powder would not work worth the crap

but it did. I will try it next time I shoot at 500 yards. I have a question for you how far do you shoot your 6-284 and what do you shoot with it? Is it mostly paper or Varmits? I want to try shoot some coyotes at 800 yards + this winter but for deer I want to stay at 600 yards and under because the Bullet Energy is low beyond that. I wish Sierra would just get it over with and make a 100gr MatchKing.

[ 08-05-2004: Message edited by: dakor ]

[ 08-05-2004: Message edited by: dakor ]

 

[Fiftydriver]

Dakor,

I made my 6mm-284 for the purpose on hunting rock chucks at ranges from 800 to 1200 yards.

I originally intended to use the 105 gr Hornady A-Max as it would perform much better at longer ranges as far as expansion and energy transfer.

Problem is that they let loose as far as accuracy at 3250 fps almost to the fps. At 3240 fps I was getting 1/2 moa groups at 400 yards and at the next test load up, 3265 fps, they grouped 1.5 moa. They just got worse from there.

I feel this is because I actually have more twist then needed for the 105 A-Max, a 1-9 would have been much better.

I just built a 6mm-06 for a customer using a 1-9 barrel and he is getting near 3600 fps with the 105 gr A-Max out fo a 28" barrel with groups in the 3's and 4's at 100 yards.

Anyway, I tried the 107 gr Sierra Mk and found it held extreme accuracy up to 3600 fps so I used that bullet.

On game this bullet is a relatively poor performer. On chucks past 800 yards, you better score a front end hit or the chuck will get down its den.

Still, if you connect in the front end it will instantly anchor a chuck out to at least 1055 yards which is my personal best one shot kill range.

On larger game such as coyotes its a different story. There is enough mass and resistance in the coyote to disrupt the bullet more and clean kills with this round and bullet combo are even more dramatic then on chucks at ranges out to 900 yards.

I would feel very comfortable shooting pronghorns on the open prairie out to the half mile mark. Deer I would limit to 600 yards like you say and to open country.

This 6mm is actually the reason I am building my 338 Kahn. I simply need more frontal area and energy for positive kills at ranges out to 2000 yards then the 6mm-284 will ever produce.

The 338 will drive the 300 gr Mk to 3100 to 3150 fps out of the 34" Lilja so it will certainly hit hard at 2000 yards. Trajectory and wind drift will even rival my 50 BMG at extreme range.

Still the 50 has a "slight" edge in terminal performance over the 338 Kahn

!

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Iron Worker]

Hey Fifty Driver I have a question! If with the bullet seated out to touch the lands[87gr V-MAX] in front of 57.2 of H1000 for a fps of about 3500 out of a 26"tube.Wont I loose velocity if I seat the bullet deaper in the case? Could I increase the powder charge to compensatfor the velocity reduction?Is it just cause I'm lacking 2" of BBL that I'm not getting those steller velocities you and dakor are getting?How often do you clean You rifle between shots? Oh ya I have a 10" twist hart BBL

 

[dakor]

Iron Worker if you come off the lands you will decrease pressure so you will lose velocity. So you will have to add powder to the case to get the same speed as the load that is on the lands. I myself have had better speed off the lands a little bit and it does not seem to effect accuracy one bit. With a 26 inch tube you should really only be about 100fps to 150 fps slower than me. With a 26 inch tube with a 1 and 10 twist you should get some pretty good FPS with it. Some people claim the slower the twist the faster the barrel is. I do not know if there is any difference in FPS between a 1 and 9 or a 1 and 10 twist with barrels being the same length.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Iron Worker,

I do not think you have a problem with your barrel first off. What I do think is that you are using a very slow powder for the bullet weight you are using.

For the 87 gr pills, Rl-19 and Rl-22 are much better burn rates then H-1000. If you want to stay with the Hodgdon powders which I agree are great for consistancy, try H-4831 as it is roughly the same burn rate as Rl-19.

One problem with using very slow powders behind a relatively light bullet is that it is very hard to get the chamber pressure up high enough to get an efficent and clean powder burn.

Because of this you will notice a large amount of powder fouling. This is easy to remove with Hoppe's #9 but it is still an accuracy robbing problem and it worsens with to slow a burning powders.

With the powders in the burn rate of Rl-19 to Rl-22 you will be working at higher pressures and will get a cleaner burn.

As far as seating into the rifling, that is a tricky thing to predict as far as velocity drop. It depends alot on the throat dimensions you have in your rifle.

My rifle is cut with a very tight 0.0002" over bullet diameter throat. I only loose 10-15 fps dropping off the lands 0.010". It may be interesting to you that my throat is also quite long and if I seat the bullets deep into the case, I actually get a velocity boost because it creates a situation of freebore.

This velocity boost is a result of being able to use more powder under a given bullet because the pressure spike is shallower because of the "freebore" situation.

Still accuracy is not as fine doing this so I seat my bullets hard into the rifling. By that I mean that I size my cases 0.00015" under bullet diameter so that the bullet is not held overly tight in the case, tight enough but thats all.

I seat the bullets all roughly 0.020" longer then the throat allows and when I chamber the round, the riflign will engage the bullet ogive and seat them all to the exact same position for each shot providing very consistant accuracy.

To do this accuractely you will need a bushing neck sizing die and you will need to turn your necks for consistancy as well. Everything needs to be basically perfect or this loading method does not perform well.

I clean my 6mm-284 every 25 shots to remove any powder fouling and with the Lilja barrel, I have found that I can clean it every 75 rounds to remove the copper with ease. They simply don't copper foul if theyare broke in properly.

Also, remember that I am driving a 30" tube, not a 28". I have 4" of barrel on you. That is dramatic. I am also using a 3 groove rifled barrel which will increase velocity as well. I also use a coated bullet which gives anothe 50 fps or so over non coated.

All in all, I would say the only thing youshould change is your powder selection. I am using Rl-22 in my rifle with the 107 gr Mk. I could probably use H-1000 in my rifle but I like the velocity and consistancy of the Rl-22 as well as the clean burning.

If I had your rifle come into the shop for load developement, the two powders I would load up first with your bullet selection would be R-19 and R-22.

You will get at least 3600 fps with those powders and probably a bit more.

Something to think about, Hornady lists the 240 Wby as only getting 3500 fps with only one powder using the 87 gr bullet. That powder is IMR-4320, very quick compared to H-1000.

The best all the other powders are getting is 3300 fps from the Hornady 24" barrel. I think your getting better then you think, jsut using to slow a powder.

Try something faster and see what happens.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Iron Worker]

Hello Kirby thanks for yours and Dakors interest in answering my questions.Winchester's WXR and Re 22 or I've herd one in the same.Powder rate burn chart says they are neck and neck.54.5 WXR was giving me 3550,except one mildly cool overcast California day I lost 250FPS.My higes Velocities were with H4350 and reloaders 19,with 19 cool day lost velocity.With H4350 had flyers from time to time.H1000 with a FED Match primer 57.2 gave me about 3500 .Best accuracy though!What causes flyers? Do you ever get them? With the reloader powders,and hunting in the early morning is'nt my trajectory going to suffer cause of velocity reduction.Kirby up there in Montana,the weather is much more sever.How is it that you can use the reloader powders? What about VihtN160,165 And Vith 550?Also my bullets are in the lands,How far should I back them out? For first Batch of ammo? Thanks for your time Guys Go BUSH

 

[Fiftydriver]

Iron worker,

First off, on the powder front. Your going to have to go with what your rifle tells you it likes. If it likes H-1000 loaded to 3500 fps then that is where you may have to stay.

Still I find it a little interesting you are getting such high velocity drops with the Rl powders and especially with the Hodgdon extreme powders which include all of the extruded stick powders from them.

They are the most stabile in varying temperatures that I have ever tested. Sure there is still some variation but not much over normal temp changes like morning to day hunting.

I have seen a 80 fps increase with my rifle shooting in temps in the 10-20 degree F range in winter yote hunting and then shooting in 90 degree weather in the summer for chucks. But I have never witnessed anything like what you stated when comparing morning temp to afternoon temps which here in Montana will range from 40 to 50 degrees easily.

Most I have logged in velocity variation with my load is around 50 fps in such condition.

To be honest, when shooting at extreme range, this will always be a slight problem that will require you to adjust for higher or lower temps. It really shows up once we stretch things past 500 yards.

My tests seem to tell me that using a very fast or very slow powder for a certain case capacity will prove unsatisfactory.

That said, the very slow powders will usually give amazing E.S. numbers and that may result in fewer fliers.

While the faster powders will often produce better group sizes at short to moderate ranges(100 to 300 yards).

The big cased, small bores are tricky little animals to tame, sometimes its easy, sometimes it an ongoing chore.

I would still try some H4831 or H4831SC and see how they perform in the velocity spread area.

As for fliers. That is a topic worthy of a novel and no one really has a scientific fact as to why they happen.

My personal theory is that every load produces a rythmic vibration pattern in the barrel as the bullet travels down it and finally exits.

This pattern actually flexes the barrel to some degree. With loads that the rifle likes, this pattern is very consistant from shot to shot and for loads it does not like the vibration pattern is not as consistant which postitions the muzzle in a different location from one shot to the other.

I can not prove this but I have tested it quite a bit with very light barreled rifles in rounds such as the 257 STW and 300 RUM. Even with top quality barrels and machine, the lighter barrels are much more picky about loads then a heavy barreled rifle will be.

In my testing, I was using Lilja barrels on all rifles and chambered with the same reamer for each caliber. Bedding was as close to the same as I could possibly make it and quality stocks were used in each.

In both cases, the heavier barrel shot far more different loads very well whereas, the light barrel certainly shot very well with some of the same loads, it shot noticably looser groups with many more as well.

Fliers are a tricky thing. Barrel heat and bore fouling can cause them with some bullets, simply some bullets themselves are not made concentric and will create fliers.

Most fliers are human error showing up on paper but since you obviously are getting better groups with certain loads over others, I know you would not be the problem here.

Basically its the relationship between the load and the rifle and its mechanical set up. I know for a fact that a poor thread fit to a receiver will result in fliers, as will a barrel that has bee over tightened.

Many smiths think they need to get teh 6 foot cheater bar out to tighten down a barrel, this could be the worst thing to accuracy there is.

We simply need to have the barrel stay tight when shooting, nothing more.

Hell, BR shooters tighten their barrels down just slightly tighter then hadn tight adn remove them with little raceway wrenchs. that tells you something about accuracy and barrel tightness.

Other things that cause fliers are bedding problems, to loose or again to tight of action screws. On Rem M700's ADL(which is the most accurate stock design for the 700), tightening the middle action screw to much, these should only be snug, NEVER TIGHT as they flex the action alot.

There are a host of things that will cause fliers.

Once you have corrected any of these things that you can correct, the biggest thing and hardest thing sometimes for a shooter is to listen to his or her rifle and adjust their loading to what they are hearing.

Far to many shooters are looking to make a certain bullet shoot to a certain velocity and sometimes they do and sometimes the barrel gets destroyed trying to make it work.

Experimenting is great but in a round like the 6mm-284, it will use up alot of barrel life as well.

Have you played with seating depth to try to adjust out the flyiers? This will often do it as well.

I generally start with the bullets into the lands and then load other test groups 0.010" off, 0.020" off and 0.030" off the lands and shoot then all. Generally you will see a prefereance for one of the four test lengths and then you can go in and test that length further.

For example, say teh load that is 0.010" off shoots the best. I would then take that same load and load up five more test loads or say 5 to 6 rounds at 0.005" off, 0.007" off, 0.010" off, 0.012" off and finally 0.015" off the lands.

Go out and shoot them, find the best of the lot and then load up 12 or 15 of that best load and shoot several 3, 4 or 5 shot groups to check for fliers. This testing is best done at 200-300 yards for all the load testing as this will magnify any advantage one load has over the other.

At 100 yards, one load may be much better then the other but comparing a .300" group to a .350" group is tough to do. At 300 yards, you will be looking at a variation of probably nearly 3/4" to 1" difference in group size.

Hope this helps a little!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Iron Worker]

Thanks Kirby going to the range on Sunday.I'll have 4 different powder combo's to retry. 53.0 H4350,54.5 WXR 56.0 SC4831 57.2 H1000 all with Hornady 87gr V-Max.Wish me luck. Out of these I'll start adjusting seating depth.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Iron Worker,

Good luck, let us know how they shoot for you!

Kirby Allen(50)