375 cal barrel twist and projectiles?

[kellyzier]

Yea, I can sell them to you....they will have some good life to them as I will only use them for my snipe tac and then Im done with them. We can come up with a price thats good for both of us, let me know what you think..I will go find my bill

zma

 

[japple]

Gotcha i thought you might need one right away...

Nope not in a hurry at all! Thanks though! I just want to take my time and have fun building this! It will be the first time I build by myself and just want to get it done by december when I head to school. I have a freind who is a retired machinist and has built many of his own rifles who will be helping me with the build.

 

[BobbyL]

Well good luck to ya. If you need any help or have some questions give me a call.

 

[Chas1]

Kelly,

What stcok did you go with for your build? I can't quite decide on what to go with, I talked to Joel russo today and he was a wealth of knowledge, but I had no idea how expensive the stocks are. It knocked me off rocker a bit! LOL
I will figure it out, but I need some ideas!

If Joel's building it, it will be worth every penny.

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

"I will lay it out really simple here.....If a gun maker, or barrel maker were to only think of profit, why would they encourage a process that extends the life of a barrel??? "... It is even simpler than that. Selling a process that does not extend barrel life combines two sales in one.

Your premise begs the question.

Leaving the commercial incentive aside, look at the report I linked.

Boeing was selling "Boeing Chrome" (TDC) against the established hard-chrome process. Nitriding came in as a distant third, which is really no mystery if you look at the periodic chart. Compare the melting points of chrome, and iron.

Their test was done in a 3-5 round burst mode, followed by a barrel cool-down period, with ammunition specifically designed for fully automatic application. In comparison to the overbore cartridges, typically used for ELR, the forcing cone life in the nitrided test barrel was comparable to that of conventional barrels in small calibers. Other tests have produced the same results, as this is not a new question.

This is why Fabrique National uses "thin dense chrome" ("Boeing" chrome) in the barrels of their re-released Model 70. This does increase throat life, whereas nitriding simply does not. As mentioned initially, a 60+ Rockwell hardness does have a function in bore treatments, but you are unlikely to ever shoot projectiles that need it.

 

[kellyzier]

Noel,,,your statement here....If a gun maker, or barrel maker were to only think of profit, why would they encourage a process that extends the life of a barrel??? "... It is even simpler than that. Selling a process that does not extend barrel life combines two sales in one.

I don't think you get it man! Lawton is not selling nitriding,,,,Hence, your statement (two sales in one) is all washed up! Lawton only suggested it, H & M is selling the process. H & M and Lawton are two totally seperate companies.

And secondly, the test you talk about is referenced to automatic machine guns,,,apples and oranges. The fact is, you've never done your own tests. So you can't say. I,ve never done my own tests, this is why Im waiting for Lawton's data. This forum is not about one guys opinion (yours or mine) its more of a collective gathering of data.

Your opinion is just that, it's an opinion. My opinion was more of a statment that said, there are guys that are doing this process to their barrel burners and they are seeing extended barrel life. How much is the 64,000 dollar question. This is why Im waiting for more concrete data.

Im kind of wondering,,,you seem to have a ton of ideas reference LR shooting. Do you even have your own LR test rifle? If so, what do you shoot? Just wondering???

z,man

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

"Lawton is not selling nitriding..."... Good, then the emotional attachment aspect of this discussion can fall by the wayside. Show me Bobby's data.

"And secondly, the test you talk about is referenced to automatic machine guns,,,apples and oranges."... Not really. Read my last post, and be certain that you understand the referenced data. Parroting Bobby on this is going to leave you looking silly.

"Your opinion is just that, it's an opinion."... No. Mine is a report of test results produced by others, and they are reputable. Only one was linked.

"Im kind of wondering,,,you seem to have a ton of ideas reference LR shooting. Do you even have your own LR test rifle? If so, what do you shoot? Just wondering???"... Yes, and I hope you will understand why that is all you are going to get out of me.

I was able to have a beta-tester fire successfully against the illusive GS 414 grain, within days, because very little of what I do is public knowledge. Things work better that way...

 

[kellyzier]

Noel,,,my question here and your answer......

"Do you even have your own LR test rifle? If so, what do you shoot? Just wondering???"... Yes, and I hope you will understand why that is all you are going to get out of me.

OMG, here we go again with the cloak & dagger...So you have some kind of secret gun that you are shooting? And you can't tell people on this forum, a forum that you wish to promote your bullets on???? Wow, that's great marketing man!! A secret gun that shoots your advertised (non secret) bullets. Wow, what a combo!!

And your other quote below......

I was able to have a beta-tester fire successfully against the illusive GS 414 grain, within days, because very little of what I do is public knowledge. Things work better that way...

You've got a beta tester shooting your bullet against the (illusive GS 414)? First of all, there's no way your tester got his hands on the GS 414 MK2. So how can he shoot against it? You're right is is Illusive, cause your beta tester doesn't have any. They're not for sale man, not yet anyway.

And what do your words mean Noel? (successfully against the GS 414).
Define, this, give me data, give me cold hard data on what you or the beta tester did. Prove for all to see here, how your ZA bullet was successful against the GS 414. Im gonna go get my popcorn cause this is really gonna get good. Im betting you're gonna keep this a secret too..what a gas.

You said Im gonna look bad in front of everyone here cause Im parroting Bobby Lawton. Dude, seriously, I want to see you dig your way out of this one.

Your statements here along with your secret little tests and your secret gun are really impacting your credibility and your ability to market a bullet line that might have potential.

I need to stop coaching you on business 101 and just sit back and enjoy my popcorn as you dig your way out of the hole you keep digging with your words.

cheers,
zman

 

[noel carlson]

Kelly,

"OMG, here we go again with the cloak & dagger"... More specifically, you have no reasonable expectation of being told.

The GS375/7.0-414 grain, if you recall, failed at 100 yards. The ZA375/6.5-M (397 grain) flew supersonic at 2,500+ yards a few days later with .5 MOA vertical dispersion... no correction for windage.

We have fired the GS projectiles, and they are all of very similar design. There were no surprises for me.

I am going to need you to focus;

What is Bobby's data indicating a nitrided bore is more heat resistant than a standard bore? If you evade this question again, I will have to assume the answer does not matter to you.

 

[kellyzier]

What about the cloak and dager, the secret testing, secret guns etc,, etc etc....NO response?????


Your statement......The GS375/7.0-414 grain, if you recall, failed at 100 yards.

Noel, come on man...you're smoking some really good weed here...Now you are twisting data around trying to take old data and make it present day. You're really going to **** off the natives by making false statements for all to read here.

You have been following the GS 414 Mk1 and Mk2 tests just like everyone else here. And you know as well as I do, that Mk1 failed at 100 yards and Mk2 passed with flying colors. To this date, the GS414 (MK2) has passed with flying colors all the way to 1,150 yards.

You know this, so stop putting in these little blurbs that are misquotes about your competitor GS. These types of quotes are not just misleading, when you make these statements by themselves without the subsequent (successfull) tests, it's flat out wrong and really bad business. I've said this before, your words will come back to bite you.

Seriously, is this your marketing strategy? Make false statements about the competition to make your product appear better???

Sad, so very sad

 

[kellyzier]

And here is another one of your FALSE statements............

I was able to have a beta-tester fire successfully against the illusive GS 414 grain, within days, because very little of what I do is public knowledge. Things work better that way...

First you say here....that you HAVE indeed test fired against what you call the (illusive GS 414 Grain).......

Then later I comment that there is no way you could have shot the GS 414,, cause it's not released yet....Consequently you change your story and say....

We have fired the GS projectiles, and they are all of very similar design. There were no surprises for me.

Now, you admitt that you have not test fired them and state that well, they are all the same anyways....Fact is, you have NOT tested against them.

Business 101 tip for you (its free)....stop talking about the competition. Nobody is listening.........

Im done here

chow

 

[bigngreen]

You know this, so stop putting in these little blurbs that are misquotes about your competitor GS.

The way I see it GS isn't really competition to Noel as there is no commercially available product from him as of yet, just illusive pictures, rumors of bullets,"beta testers" and bashing of companies actually producing a bullet.

Noel is not worth getting upset about, he destroys every thread he comes to with talk and "data" but has yet to bring any walk!

Keep us in the loop one your rifle Zman some of us are taking notes for a build of our own!!!

 

[Chas1]

I don't think you get it man! Lawton is not selling nitriding,,,,Hence, your statement (two sales in one) is all washed up! Lawton only suggested it, H & M is selling the process. H & M and Lawton are two totally seperate companies.

I have no dog in this fight, just an fyi: While 2 companies might be totally seperate they can and do partner while wetting each other's beek so to speak. Not saying this is the case with Lawton and H & M but, it's possible as there are several types of partnering...those that are in your face such as Bk or Mac with the movie industry and then there's those are closely held in confidentiallity.

 

[kellyzier]

The way I see it GS isn't really competition to Noel as there is no commercially available product from him as of yet, just illusive pictures, rumors of bullets,"beta testers" and bashing of companies actually producing a bullet.

Noel is not worth getting upset about, he destroys every thread he comes to with talk and "data" but has yet to bring any walk!

Keep us in the loop one your rifle Zman some of us are taking notes for a build of our own!!!

Bigngreen,,,

I could not have said it better myself....I just don't have the time or the energy to battle with Noel. I have watched him for sometime on this site and the snipershide battle with everyone he comes in contact with. And most of them are very reputable vendors, gunsmiths, barrel makers etc.

I am not a vendor, gunsmith or barrel maker etc,,,I just love to shoot. However, I do business with some of these folks and I have just seen enough of his attacks on these guys. His business ethics are sad and he is indeed his own worst enemy. On the thread issue,,,,,He just can't resist the urge to jump into other guys threads and add his two cents.

And you are right on the money...GS is a first class bullet maker with a track record to brag about. They conduct business in a first class manner.

And lastly Im not upset with Noel, it's just better for the average reader to see Noel's games with the average guy like me.

Thanks for your perspective.....

My parts will be here next week for the snipe tac and I hope to be posting my findings soon with my 10 twist and later (if Dave V can finish his tests) the GS 414. I really do think this bullet has real promise. Time will tell.

c ya
zman