MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Are you actually implying that Kirby is a marginally experienced handloader? That's a good one.
You are quickly loosing credibility sir.
338 Allen Xpress, RL33 load development
- Thread starter Fiftydriver
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Are you actually implying that Kirby is a marginally experienced handloader? That's a good one.
You are quickly loosing credibility sir.
cohunter14
Well-Known Member
LOL, I thought the same thing when I read that...
not at all ,,,,, I was simply giving Kirby a circumstance that can and does occur with inexperienced handloaders every single day, to explain why some of them do not get the velocity they think they should from the big Lazz Warbird ,,,,,,,
and not just with Lazzeroni calibers either ,,,,, all sorts of super-mags these guys try put together ,,,,,
Kirby is likely very experienced now and I believe he does a great job ,,,,, but there was a day when he was not ,,,,,
as far as my own creditability ,,, certainly I still have a lot more to learn, but what I do know is a matter of record ,,,,,,
realize that I NEVER have criticized anything Kirby has ever built or sold ,,,, wish I could say the same for him,,,,,
and not just with Lazzeroni calibers either ,,,,, all sorts of super-mags these guys try put together ,,,,,
Kirby is likely very experienced now and I believe he does a great job ,,,,, but there was a day when he was not ,,,,,
as far as my own creditability ,,, certainly I still have a lot more to learn, but what I do know is a matter of record ,,,,,,
realize that I NEVER have criticized anything Kirby has ever built or sold ,,,, wish I could say the same for him,,,,,
Tumbleweed
Well-Known Member
Wow! I would never buy a Lazzaroni product.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Again, thank you for implying that we are nothing but inexperienced at doing anything with firearms. Got a similar reply back then and the same ever sense. Its common knowledge that early Warbird brass was very weak yet you still can not admit it even though there are nearly endless reports of it being very week.
We used YOUR load data and never got close so who is the inexperienced loader here? We were not trying to rediscover the wheel here, we were also not trying to push the limits, we were simply trying to meet YOUR listed velocity levels for your Warbird. With the old brass, we were loosing primer pockets 4-5 grains under your max load and at nearly 150 fps below where YOU say your Warbird will run with no problem at all.
With newer brass, yes its much better but we still ran into pressure problems at 75 fps below your listed velocity levels with H-1000. When Retumbo came out we tried that and got within 50 fps of your listed velocity with acceptable brass life.
By that I mean we can get 4-5 firings on each case before the primer pocket is looser then we both like to see.
Fully understanding rifle to rifle variation, my brother and I both accept the 50fps off the advertised velocity. Some rifles are just slower then others, fact of life, no problem.
To be honest, I never really had a serious problem with your products, especially now that I have been doing what I am doing for over a decade now. You push the limits of performance and issues come up. Brass and rifles are mechanical things, things go wrong with mechanical things from time to time. Bugs need to be worked out, refined, solved and then we get back to it.
My problem ALL ALONG was your reply to me which was nothing but personal insults and degrading me as a handloader, shooter and hunter. Your replies were like this from the first time I contacted you. I never attacked you, I was asking for your help and all you did was say it was my fault and I was inexperienced and had no idea how to measure anything or how to load to correct pressures, even though we were only going off YOUR listed data......
It was your reply and insults that have stuck with me all these years. Now that I am a "BIT" more experienced as a handloader, I know for a fact the problem was not ours but in the product.
Your arrogance and contempt for anyone that you feel is questioning your products is truly amazing and at times hard to comprehend. Instead of helping them, you do nothing but basically tell them your products are more then they can handle. Again, we were coming to you for help as we had already supported you by purchasing your products, yet you saw no need to help, only insult....
Your problem is not in your products, but more in your humility.
Congrats on the fine shot on the deer. That is a very nice trophy deer for sure and a fine shot. I always use hold over shooting out to 1000 yards. For out to that range, its plenty accurate and consistent for cleanly harvesting big game. Past 1000 yards, you start to get pretty far down in the field of view in any scope and you can start to get into some parallax issues no matter how quality the scope is so consistency at +1000 yards with hold over can be a problem. My rule of thumb is that if your holding over more then 5 mils, its time to dial up. If your hold over is less then 5 mils and you have a good scope and good shooting technique, hold over is my preferred method of big game hunting.
Again, great shot, great trophy but your customer service and your lack of humility is still your greatest problem.
We used YOUR load data and never got close so who is the inexperienced loader here? We were not trying to rediscover the wheel here, we were also not trying to push the limits, we were simply trying to meet YOUR listed velocity levels for your Warbird. With the old brass, we were loosing primer pockets 4-5 grains under your max load and at nearly 150 fps below where YOU say your Warbird will run with no problem at all.
With newer brass, yes its much better but we still ran into pressure problems at 75 fps below your listed velocity levels with H-1000. When Retumbo came out we tried that and got within 50 fps of your listed velocity with acceptable brass life.
By that I mean we can get 4-5 firings on each case before the primer pocket is looser then we both like to see.
Fully understanding rifle to rifle variation, my brother and I both accept the 50fps off the advertised velocity. Some rifles are just slower then others, fact of life, no problem.
To be honest, I never really had a serious problem with your products, especially now that I have been doing what I am doing for over a decade now. You push the limits of performance and issues come up. Brass and rifles are mechanical things, things go wrong with mechanical things from time to time. Bugs need to be worked out, refined, solved and then we get back to it.
My problem ALL ALONG was your reply to me which was nothing but personal insults and degrading me as a handloader, shooter and hunter. Your replies were like this from the first time I contacted you. I never attacked you, I was asking for your help and all you did was say it was my fault and I was inexperienced and had no idea how to measure anything or how to load to correct pressures, even though we were only going off YOUR listed data......
It was your reply and insults that have stuck with me all these years. Now that I am a "BIT" more experienced as a handloader, I know for a fact the problem was not ours but in the product.
Your arrogance and contempt for anyone that you feel is questioning your products is truly amazing and at times hard to comprehend. Instead of helping them, you do nothing but basically tell them your products are more then they can handle. Again, we were coming to you for help as we had already supported you by purchasing your products, yet you saw no need to help, only insult....
Your problem is not in your products, but more in your humility.
Congrats on the fine shot on the deer. That is a very nice trophy deer for sure and a fine shot. I always use hold over shooting out to 1000 yards. For out to that range, its plenty accurate and consistent for cleanly harvesting big game. Past 1000 yards, you start to get pretty far down in the field of view in any scope and you can start to get into some parallax issues no matter how quality the scope is so consistency at +1000 yards with hold over can be a problem. My rule of thumb is that if your holding over more then 5 mils, its time to dial up. If your hold over is less then 5 mils and you have a good scope and good shooting technique, hold over is my preferred method of big game hunting.
Again, great shot, great trophy but your customer service and your lack of humility is still your greatest problem.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
You have never owned one of my products so you have no basis for criticizing one of my products. IF you had contacted me with a problem, I would have made it right or at least explained what was causing the problem. I would not have told you that you were far to inexperienced to even know what I was talking about.
Again, We have worked with two of your products, 7.21 Tomahawk and 7.82 Warbird and with both there were serious issues and with both, we got insulted by you when we asked for help. That was more then enough for me to bail on your products. Which is to bad, in theory, they offer great performance.
Please, do not try to take the high ground now and say you have NEVER criticized anything I have made, you have no reason to. Again, I had my issues with you long before I was building firearms professionally but I had been loading for nearly 20 years at that time and had been doing long range hunting and shooting for nearly 10 years at that time. Was I the most experienced loader out there, no, but read this carefully:
We were loading your brass, with your load data, following your instructions and we were loosing primer pockets 4-5 grains under your listed loads and at 125-150 fps under your listed recommended velocity ranges. And, on the virgin Tomahawk brass, again VIRGIN brass, the case wall thickness was 50% thinner on one side then the other.
Still, it is our fault for these problems. Your humility has not improved in any way. Had you said, yes there were some consistency issues with early brass but we are working hard to correct the problem, you likely would have never gotten a bit of bad press from me. But you have made it a point to insult us from day one and still do. I can forgive a problem with an issue with a product, that happens, happens to me from time to time, you admit it and solve it, no harm done, you do not insult anyone that comes to you for help because you think they are insulting you by questioning your products which are apparently above reproach.
The funny thing, had you shut up, you were about to get some free advertisement for your Warbird and load data using RL33. There would have been a lot of discussion about your Warbird and this new powder which I am sure will be an impressive combo, now I think I will just post about my 338 AX.
Please lets get back to topic, have a good day. This post is about my 338 AX, not you or your products.
I'd say this is a pretty good example of why it's so important to recover well when there's a Customer with a problem.
When a guy says he used your data, which by the way, is a heck of a lot simpler than an oatmeal cookie recipe, and he has problems, maybe you should get to the root of the discrepancy instead of being dismissive. When Kirby says he measured brass 50% thinner on one side, unless he's measuring with his fingertips, just how good do one need to be at measuring brass before that raises a concern? I'd say the cost of a refund or replacement on a few pieces of brass is looking pretty good right about now compared to the money saved by brushing off what appears to be a legitimate complaint.
The rifle business is rife with products that don't live up to claims or expectations. It seems like the standard operating procedure for handling customer concerns is flat out denial. As a consumer, I'm pretty sensitive to how customers are handled after the sale.
When a guy says he used your data, which by the way, is a heck of a lot simpler than an oatmeal cookie recipe, and he has problems, maybe you should get to the root of the discrepancy instead of being dismissive. When Kirby says he measured brass 50% thinner on one side, unless he's measuring with his fingertips, just how good do one need to be at measuring brass before that raises a concern? I'd say the cost of a refund or replacement on a few pieces of brass is looking pretty good right about now compared to the money saved by brushing off what appears to be a legitimate complaint.
The rifle business is rife with products that don't live up to claims or expectations. It seems like the standard operating procedure for handling customer concerns is flat out denial. As a consumer, I'm pretty sensitive to how customers are handled after the sale.
Kirby ,,,,,,,,
you are not listening now any more than you listened back then ,,,,,,,
something was wrong with your load combo ,,,, and when we tried to inform you of this, you rambled on and on and on just like you are doing now ,,,,,,,
certainly the Warbird brass we had in the 90s, was not as good as we have today, ((all brass is better today than it was in the 90s)) but it was STILL within spec and we were able to achieve our published velocities, at 66,900 PSI with our factory loads, and properly put together handloads,,,,,,
it is a matter of record, I have calibrated pressure barrels, that is what we sold, and the performance was NOT exaggerated ,,,,,, I still use the very first batch of Warbird brass in my personal rifle today, 18 years later ,,,,,,,
if you want to talk about insulting, just read over again all of your LONG drawn out posts to me ,,,, your animosity toward what I have done is at the very least unattractive ,,,,,
you are not listening now any more than you listened back then ,,,,,,,
something was wrong with your load combo ,,,, and when we tried to inform you of this, you rambled on and on and on just like you are doing now ,,,,,,,
certainly the Warbird brass we had in the 90s, was not as good as we have today, ((all brass is better today than it was in the 90s)) but it was STILL within spec and we were able to achieve our published velocities, at 66,900 PSI with our factory loads, and properly put together handloads,,,,,,
it is a matter of record, I have calibrated pressure barrels, that is what we sold, and the performance was NOT exaggerated ,,,,,, I still use the very first batch of Warbird brass in my personal rifle today, 18 years later ,,,,,,,
if you want to talk about insulting, just read over again all of your LONG drawn out posts to me ,,,, your animosity toward what I have done is at the very least unattractive ,,,,,
RL-33 load data where did you go the last three pages of posts? I'm about ready to head out to the range with RL-33 loaded in 300 RUM on a 30" Lilja and 230 Bergers. Results of RL-33 in large magnum cartridges such as the 338 AX is helping while making decisions with loads.
Is there any more RL data out there?
Is there any more RL data out there?
Tumbleweed
Well-Known Member
RL-33 load data where did you go the last three pages of posts? I'm about ready to head out to the range with RL-33 loaded in 300 RUM on a 30" Lilja and 230 Bergers. Results of RL-33 in large magnum cartridges such as the 338 AX is helping while making decisions with loads.
Is there any more RL data out there?
In my personal experience I discovered that to equal the pressure levels of Retumbo in my RUM I needed approx. 10 grains more of RL33. Mine is a full custom with a 32" Broughton 5C using 230 hybrids. The velocity gains over Retumbo were very impressive. I have a non-conventional throating which I'm sure contributed to this difference. I would start 3-5 grains over Retumbo max load and work up in 1 grain increments to find where pressure starts. I believe Berger load data shows 88 grains as max with Retumbo and the 230's.
I have not yet had the opportunity yet to try the new reloader 33, but I remember about 14 years ago when the reloader 25 & Retumbo was released, and it really improved the potential performance of the super-mags like the Lazz Warbird and Weatherby 30-378,,,,,, especially with the heavier bullets ,,,,,,
and it would make perfect sense to add around 2-6% more of it, compared to reloader 25, to achive the same pressure levels along with the corresponding increase in velocity ,,,,,,
and it would make perfect sense to add around 2-6% more of it, compared to reloader 25, to achive the same pressure levels along with the corresponding increase in velocity ,,,,,,
I don't not own a rifle from John Lazzeroni or Kirby..I do believe I would buy from both of them,, but I do not get RIPPING EACH OTHERS *** on this site makes for good business practice...You both believe in your product and this needs to be handled over the phone or personal E-MAIL.....( The man that doesn't need a audience is always the winner in life and business. )
