Will Federal's new 6.5 Creedmoor +Peak ammo make the 6.5 Creedmoor a legitimate elk cartridge?

memtb said:

But…. that can be determined in far less rounds than the typical 20 round box of ammo. Then you have the balance of your powder purchase (likely 5# or 8#) plus the remainder of your 1K (unless you purchased 5K) to serve you well for quite some time!

The purchase of factory ammo, one or two boxes at a time, is pretty much a "crap-shoot"! memtb

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Oh, I agree wifh you, and with him for the most part.
It was just the ignoring of the varibles handloaders face as well.

akmtnhnt said:

Regarding recoil. Weight of the rifle is a really important component.

I ran the numbers in my 6.5lb 6.5cm and it would be a 18.5% increase in recoil, or more importantly, 4ft-lbs more. If you've ever actually done the math and then shot cartridges, that's rather large increase. No one isn't going to notice that if they shot them back to back. It is however less than if I rechambered it to 6.5PRC and got the same velocity because there's a good bit less powder in the 6.5cm peak. The PRC would have a 47% increase in recoil energy.

However, if my rifle was 13lbs, which I'd wager a lot of people's scoped bipoded etc rifles are, it's still an 18% increase in recoil, but that 18% is only 1ft-lb instead of 4. Are you going to notice 9.5lbs instead of 8? Probably. But not only is that below where documented professional shooters do not lose accuracy due to recoil, it's on the small side either way.

15 to 19, that matters. 8 to 9.5, not near as much.

If someone says this cartridge doesn't increase felt recoil, they probably just experienced it on a heavy rifle and don't actually know how or what effects recoil and don't have the experience in shooting to relate that to different rifle weights.... and then there's brakes and suppressors.

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If I'm not mistaken, the videos with experienced shooters are on this thread. They shot regular brass, then shot the Peak + from literally the same rifles, and reported they couldn't notice any difference in felt recoil. I didn't conduct the test, so I can only report their observations.

MSR_Gal said:

Will Federal's new 6.5 Creedmoor +Peak ammo make the 6.5 Creedmoor a legitimate elk cartridge?

They will supposedly offer a 155gr Tipped Fusion at 2900 fps and a 130gr Terminal Artfnh scent at 3100 fps.

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Won't make any difference as it's more about - Shot placement and a Quality made bullet
I would shoot an Elk anytime now with my 20 " 65 CM with my load of RL17 and the 127 LRX bullet .

Bobby Bailey said:

There is a flaw in your argument, handloading powder also varies lot to lot, as do primers.

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That's true. But 8lbs of powder is ~1200 rounds of an average cartridge.

Whereas a box of 20 today, is, well, 20. Because the box of 20 next week is likely different.

I, as well as most people buy primers in the largest quantity we possibly can. I have enough on hand right now of the same lot number that I'll likely never use them in my lifetime.

Bobby Bailey said:

Oh, I agree wifh you, and with him for the most part.
It was just the ignoring of the varibles handloaders face as well.

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Handloading you can control those variables. It's one of the many reasons a person might choose to do so. In fact in the list of variable's we're trying to control in handloading, those are so easy and fundamental, I forgot anyone wouldn't assume that to be the case.

scooter1954 said:

If I'm not mistaken, the videos with experienced shooters are on this thread. They shot regular brass, then shot the Peak + from literally the same rifles, and reported they couldn't notice any difference in felt recoil. I didn't conduct the test, so I can only report their observations.

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I only see the one video with elmer fudd there. And he's shooting that heavy rifle. I can't say exactly what it weights, but can guess he's north of 10lbs based on the weight of that chassis, scope and barreled action + bipod and suppressor. The more the rifle weighs, the more that 18% is less of an actual number in ft-lbs of energy. But with the suppressor, I'd wager it's down around .5ft-lbs of recoil extra in the rifle he was shooting. That's going to be on the hard to notice side.
Put that in a properly light hunting rifle, and they're going to notice.

I will re-iterate what I said before. Weight matters a LOT. If someone says "x cartridge doesn't recoil", without the qualifiers of total rifle weight and muzzle device, then nothing they just said has any actual meaning.
I can build you a 243win that kicks like a mule. And I can build you a 375 ruger that is the most pleasant thing ever to shoot all day.

memtb said:

But…. that can be determined in far less rounds than the typical 20 round box of ammo. Then you have the balance of your powder purchase (likely 5# or 8#) plus the remainder of your 1K (unless you purchased 5K) primers to serve you well for quite some time!

The purchase of factory ammo, one or two boxes at a time, is pretty much a "crap-shoot"! memtb

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Yup. I mean if you're just shooting at 100ish yards like the typical american hunter, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Most people don't even notice their zero is off, they're not going to notice even a 1MOA shift in POI from lot to lot, because that's a inch or less with most shots taken by people who buy a box at a time.

You know, to the ops question.

The creed was a legitimate elk cartridge before this.

Maybe more so in some rifleman's hands than other's.

Maybe the steel alloy case will make it 100-200 yards more legitimate.

That can't be bad.

akmtnhnt said:

I only see the one video with elmer fudd there. And he's shooting that heavy rifle. I can't say exactly what it weights, but can guess he's north of 10lbs based on the weight of that chassis, scope and barreled action + bipod and suppressor. The more the rifle weighs, the more that 18% is less of an actual number in ft-lbs of energy. But with the suppressor, I'd wager it's down around .5ft-lbs of recoil extra in the rifle he was shooting. That's going to be on the hard to notice side.
Put that in a properly light hunting rifle, and they're going to notice.

I will re-iterate what I said before. Weight matters a LOT. If someone says "x cartridge doesn't recoil", without the qualifiers of total rifle weight and muzzle device, then nothing they just said has any actual meaning.
I can build you a 243win that kicks like a mule. And I can build you a 375 ruger that is the most pleasant thing ever to shoot all day.

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I apologize, I mistakenly thought the video I was referencing was on this thread. And I agree with you, weight can play a huge difference.

However, there are least two videos on threads found here, showcasing experienced shooters, firing 3 different rifles of varying barrel lengths and manufacturers (as i recall) first with standard brass, then with Peak +. I didn't get Elmer Fudd vibes off either of them. They chrono'd both batches on all three of their respective rifles, and accurately and effectively showcased their findings. They fired rifles with 24", down to 17" barrels. And their reporting was remarkably similar, though they were different individuals in different locations, firing different rifles. None of the rifles were suppressed, that I can remember, although my memory sucks, to be sure. And both of them reported no noticeable felt recoil, with the Peak +, despite the variance in rifles. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to watch their videos on YouTube or even one of the numerous topics threads on this site.

Here's what this boils down to. If you don't like the ammo, don't buy and use it. I, on the other hand, have no interest in reloading, applaud this new venture, and excitedly await an opportunity to try it out. We could discuss this further, but I see little need, so we'll call it a day.

jseandsje said:

You know, to the ops question.

The creed was a legitimate elk cartridge before this.

Maybe more so in some rifleman's hands than other's.

Maybe the steel alloy case will make it 100-200 yards more legitimate.

That can't be bad.

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I think this may be the crux of the entire discussion. Federal has taken an all ready very capable cartridge, and improved it noticeably (there's that word again, @memtb). How is this a topic of negativity? I mean, if this innovation is successful, and I hope it is, it could have enormously positive ramifications for any number of shooters! Why would we not applaud that, rather than quibble over minutiae such as how much felt recoil was observed?

As I said in a parallel discussion on the same topic, this can be a serious advancement for shooting sports, along with the PXT barrels (it may prove to work better in those barrels, due to the smoother spin acceleration of the bullet).

Not necessarily for replacing a 6.5 PRC (solving an non-existing problem), but as a technology able to significantly increase muzzle speed on many of the current cartridges. And the potential beauty is, these new "+Peak" cartridges can be used in existent rifles that we might already have.

However, the way I see it, there are a few caveats to keep in mind:
1. The recoil increase: extra speed /pressure will make shooting the new +Peak cartridges feel like magnums. People who cannot manage more than mild recoil will not shoot them any better. There will always be a large market for "tamer" cartridges
2. The same speed/pressure will exclude usage in some older rifles that may not hold together reliably - this can quickly develop in a safety issue, creating liability for the manufacturer
3. Case's reliable grip to the chamber - using a more sturdy alloy that can keep most of the violent forces contained prompts manufacturer's warnings for cleanliness of the chamber. I am not at all sure every chamber shooting the new cartridge will meet that criteria, so potential for even more liability.
Shooters shouldn't have to sign a safety waiver to use the +Peak...

I hope Federal will find the way to iron out these potential issues. It's a reputable company, and I commend it for the innovations.

scooter1954 said:

I think this may be the crux of the entire discussion. Federal has taken an all ready very capable cartridge, and improved it noticeably (there's that word again, @memtb). How is this a topic of negativity? I mean, if this innovation is successful, and I hope it is, it could have enormously positive ramifications for any number of shooters! Why would we not applaud that, rather than quibble over minutiae such as how much felt recoil was observed?

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I think the felt recoil came up as some are touting this as a free lunch. It is not. Physics says so. A person may not be able to feel that recoil, but that is going to be dependent on a lot of factors to include the shooter's perception itself. To say there is no increase in recoil is factually incorrect. How a subjective person perceives that increase is up to each individual.

The reason I generally don't believe people on youtube when it comes to recoil is because recoil has got to be one of the most lied about things when it comes to guns. Only below, "I own a 1MOA rifle." Most people think that admitting the studied and proven reality that recoil above a threshold reduces accuracy in every shooter ever studied somehow makes them less of a man.

Rather than comparing this to the CM, it should be compared to the PRC, which it basically is the same ballistically.
In that regard, it actually reduces recoil by quite a bit. That's really the only thing the high pressure rounds have going for them. We already have something that can do exactly what the 277 fury, 7BC and now 6.5CM+p do. Literally the same muzzle velocity with the same bullet at the same barrel length. Now you can get that on a non-magnum bolt face, probably get 1 more down in the magazine, and reduce recoil over the magnum by 15-20%(which is purely a function of reduced weight of the powder).

akmtnhnt said:

I think the felt recoil came up as some are touting this as a free lunch. It is not. Physics says so. A person may not be able to feel that recoil, but that is going to be dependent on a lot of factors to include the shooter's perception itself. To say there is no increase in recoil is factually incorrect. How a subjective person perceives that increase is up to each individual.

The reason I generally don't believe people on youtube when it comes to recoil is because recoil has got to be one of the most lied about things when it comes to guns. Only below, "I own a 1MOA rifle." Most people think that admitting the studied and proven reality that recoil above a threshold reduces accuracy in every shooter ever studied somehow makes them less of a man.

Rather than comparing this to the CM, it should be compared to the PRC, which it basically is the same ballistically.
In that regard, it actually reduces recoil by quite a bit. That's really the only thing the high pressure rounds have going for them. We already have something that can do exactly what the 277 fury, 7BC and now 6.5CM+p do. Literally the same muzzle velocity with the same bullet at the same barrel length. Now you can get that on a non-magnum bolt face, probably get 1 more down in the magazine, and reduce recoil over the magnum by 15-20%(which is purely a function of reduced weight of the powder).

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We covered this extensively. NO ONE claimed there was not increased recoil. What they said was, for similar ammo, fired in the same rifle, they couldn't FEEL any noticeable difference in recoil. Again, they fired 3 different guns of varying barrel lengths, and cataloged extensively, the changes in MV, SD, and point of impact changes, among other factors. WHY would they blow smoke about the recoil they perceived? That makes no sense, at all!

Again, no one is demanding that you buy and use this ammo, certainly not the shooters in these videos. They simply tried out a new product, and from everything I could see, attempted to faithfully and accurately report their observations.

akmtnhnt said:

I think the felt recoil came up as some are touting this as a free lunch. It is not. Physics says so. A person may not be able to feel that recoil, but that is going to be dependent on a lot of factors to include the shooter's perception itself. To say there is no increase in recoil is factually incorrect. How a subjective person perceives that increase is up to each individual.

The reason I generally don't believe people on youtube when it comes to recoil is because recoil has got to be one of the most lied about things when it comes to guns. Only below, "I own a 1MOA rifle." Most people think that admitting the studied and proven reality that recoil above a threshold reduces accuracy in every shooter ever studied somehow makes them less of a man.

Rather than comparing this to the CM, it should be compared to the PRC, which it basically is the same ballistically.
In that regard, it actually reduces recoil by quite a bit. That's really the only thing the high pressure rounds have going for them. We already have something that can do exactly what the 277 fury, 7BC and now 6.5CM+p do. Literally the same muzzle velocity with the same bullet at the same barrel length. Now you can get that on a non-magnum bolt face, probably get 1 more down in the magazine, and reduce recoil over the magnum by 15-20%(which is purely a function of reduced weight of the powder).

Click to expand...

Achieving higher speed is a function of pressure increase. That can be done with either more of the same powder, or changing for another powder that produces more pressure. The recoil is directly dependent and opposed to the force of the bullet pushed forward in the barrel (which comes down to the same pressure change). Federal does not disclose the powder used in its cartridge...

So, Im thinking if I chamber up a new Proof PXT barrel in 6.5 Creed and use this new case I'll be running with my 6.5 SS, the PXT will cancel out the extra recoil of the +P loads, plus I'll gain an extra 200 yards and 2k of barrel life just for combining the two!!

In all seriousness, these new cases, especially for the reloader can open up more usable bullet weights and more usable range while running the same rifle, if you can run from Grendal level plinking loads to 6.5 PRC level loads from the same rifle I find that a strong selling point!!