260 Rem Vs. 6.5-06

[elkaholic]

I am not sure you are going to get a whole lot of traction here with your velocity-limit theories. This is a LRH site where we often shoot at distances that put our impact velocities below 2000 fps. Heck one of my favorite loads gives me excellent performance on deer sized game down to around 1200 fps with a Hornady A-max. Talking about impact velocities over 2900 fps eliminates about 90% of the shooters here.

With 26-30 inch barrels and a modern action the 6.5 Swede will pretty easily hit those numbers without pressure issues, even with 130 and 140 grain bullets. You have to be careful in looking at online data for the 6.5 Swede. Most of them are loaded to lower pressure levels due to the popularity of the older and weaker Mauser actions. Based on your comments I am curious what action, barrel length, bullets brand and weight, and powder you are using. Your performance doesn't seem to add up to what I have seen.

Scot E.

Good points all!.....Rich

 

[Weezer]

I'm to understand that 6.5 bullet leaving the barrel @ 3200fps will kill better at 500yds than 6.5 bullet of like kind with a muzzle velosity 2800fps and hitting the target at the same impact speed at 300yds???
No wonder a lot of us out here in the west think most gun writers are full of bull fluff. I'm sorry but common sense does'nt seem to point out your theory.
It great to know that opinions are like rectums, everyone has one.
Weezer

 

[Sauer 150]

I'm to understand that 6.5 bullet leaving the barrel @ 3200fps will kill better at 500yds than 6.5 bullet of like kind with a muzzle velosity 2800fps and hitting the target at the same impact speed at 300yds???
No wonder a lot of us out here in the west think most gun writers are full of bull fluff. I'm sorry but common sense does'nt seem to point out your theory.
It great to know that opinions are like rectums, everyone has one.
Weezer

Good to see one still has the ability to stirr up a discussion.

It might be my explanation skills are not at par with the fellow man or some of you guys need to read carefully before replying to a post.

Weezer - where on earth are you getting this from?? If the same bullet exits the muzzle at 3200 f/s compared to 2800f/s it's going to hit with almost the same difference in velocity. If a 400f/s differnce in velocity does not effect killing potential of a caliber , you need to out more and kill more stuff with different guns.

Scot E - have I ever written or expressed there is a treshold were a bullet would not kill ? No I gave you information based on 8000 pcs of game taken with various calibers over a 2 year period where the DATA more than indicates an impact velocity above 2900f/s gives you a 90% + likelyhood of a big game going down instantaniously. I personally have a 2000f/s min velocity requirement for my own rounds - and that is MY personal maximum range for the caliber used. I do not use thin jacketed fragile bullets for BG. You might - and that is up to you.

1200f/s with an A-Max suggest you would use a 6,5-284(MV 3000f/s) out to approx 1100y on BG. You got to be one hell of a shooter to being able to put 9 out of 10 1st shot hits within a 8-10" kill sone at that range. Not to mention controlling the games movement during the 1,7s flight time of that particular bullet. If you are capable of a 10 1st shot string like that under field conditions - congrats on your skills. You are an amazing marksman! If you give classes I'll definately will look you up the next time I am over visiting some of our suppliers. This is not irony.

Regarding the velocity potential of a 6,5 Swede and it's peers I am not going to be modest and say I know a bit more than most about it. Breaking 2900f/s with a 140 grs bullet in the Swede almost regardless of powder will give you pressures in the + 60-62k PSI range. I have used an Oehler 43 P for more than 18 years, testing more than 40 different calibers and currently own 5 different Swede barrels ranging from 22-30"

Best powder available to us is RE 22/25/560/570/MRP/MRP2/AA8700/H1000

2900f/s range with safe pressure is for larger cases like the -06 and x284 - which was the reason for my advice on the 6,5-06 in the first place.

Elkhaholic - I guess you are just having sore toes which I most likely stepped on when commenting that a quarter bore pee shooter was not an appropriate Elk rifle. And by the way - I have owned 3 different 25-06 rifles and yes I have killed quite a bit of stuff with the old 117 and the newer 120 Partitions ;-) It is always a good rule of conduct to not make assumptions of someone who you know nothing about. I do not know the size of elf you normally hunt - but my experiance with them is that a + 500# critter needs a lot more bullet than a 120 grs quarter bore to be a consistant and reliable killer.

You dissagree - lets just leave it at that. There is a saying; arguing online is like participating in the special olympics and so on. From what I have read here you are a skilled individual with plenty to offer. We will however never agree on the usefullness of a quarter bore.

You guys have a great weekend. Straight shooting to all of you

 

[Scot E]

Good to see one still has the ability to stirr up a discussion.



Scot E - have I ever written or expressed there is a treshold were a bullet would not kill ? No I gave you information based on 8000 pcs of game taken with various calibers over a 2 year period where the DATA more than indicates an impact velocity above 2900f/s gives you a 90% + likelyhood of a big game going down instantaniously. I personally have a 2000f/s min velocity requirement for my own rounds - and that is MY personal maximum range for the caliber used. I do not use thin jacketed fragile bullets for BG. You might - and that is up to you.

1200f/s with an A-Max suggest you would use a 6,5-284(MV 3000f/s) out to approx 1100y on BG. You got to be one hell of a shooter to being able to put 9 out of 10 1st shot hits within a 8-10" kill sone at that range. Not to mention controlling the games movement during the 1,7s flight time of that particular bullet. If you are capable of a 10 1st shot string like that under field conditions - congrats on your skills. You are an amazing marksman! If you give classes I'll definately will look you up the next time I am over visiting some of our suppliers. This is not irony.

Regarding the velocity potential of a 6,5 Swede and it's peers I am not going to be modest and say I know a bit more than most about it. Breaking 2900f/s with a 140 grs bullet in the Swede almost regardless of powder will give you pressures in the + 60-62k PSI range. I have used an Oehler 43 P for more than 18 years, testing more than 40 different calibers and currently own 5 different Swede barrels ranging from 22-30"

Best powder available to us is RE 22/25/560/570/MRP/MRP2/AA8700/H1000

2900f/s range with safe pressure is for larger cases like the -06 and x284 - which was the reason for my advice on the 6,5-06 in the first place.

Friend,

I think you missed my point. My point was that this is a LR site and guys shoot out to 600-1200 yards for big game. I don't know a whole lot of cartridges that provide impact velocities of 2900 fps at those distances. Do you? Therefore, I am not sure you are going to get a whole lot of traction with your argument.

I am also pretty sure we all understand that a bullet traveling 2900 fps vs 2000 or 1800 or 1200 fps has the potential to kill better, assuming of course the proper bullet is being used, proper placement, etc. But this LR game is all about finding the proper balance between terminal success in an accurate and easily shoot-able platform that performs out to the limits of ability. Everyone will have a different list of factors that they require and everyone will prioritize them differently as well. This isn't a game where there is a one size fits all solution.

When using calibers with high Sectional Densities and and long length to diameter ratio like the 6.5 has, may I suggest you try using something other than the premium bullets you mentioned. I partly understand why your experiences and tests showed the results they did if you were using only the controlled expansion type bullets you mentioned. The 6.5 especially is a difficult bullet to get to expand properly due to the factors I mentioned above. Using a slightly more frangible bullet makes night and day differences in terminal performance. Also, not everyone buys into the concept that a good big game bullet has to penetrate both sides of the body to be successful. If that was the case Berger would be out of business! I personally like to blowup the insides of the vitals with a bullet that sheds weight and throws shrapnel everywhere. I have found this to be the best in guaranteeing I find every animal I take a shot at. If I could have a perfectly performing bullet it would shed about 50-60% of its weight, and just fall out of the other side of the animal. That way I get tremendous internal damage, no risk of lack of expansion and still get 2 holes for blood loss and trailing. Of course that isn't realistic but I will always err on the side of blowing up the vitals compared to putting 2 holes in a critter and risking the penciling effect that is so often mentioned here with controlled expansion premiums. If you hang here very long you will hear and read way more stories of lost animals due to non expanding issues than you will bullets that blow up prematurely.

Also, I mentioned nothing about a 6.5x284 or 3,000 fps or any of the other stats you mentioned, maybe you have me confused with someone else , so the story you provided isn't accurate.

Regarding the 6.5 Swede. 2900 fps is easily reached with no pressure issues with any of the 130 grain LR bullets like the Interbond, Swift, and STS just to name a few. With 140 grainers you can get there too in a modern action rated for modern cartridge pressures which like you mentioned are in the low to mid 60k's. It takes a slow burning powder and a long barrel but it is doable within safety measures IME. Not saying the bigger 6.5's wouldn't be better, of course they would, they hold more powder. I was simply commenting on your post that stated the you had to load to "extremely high" pressures in 130 and 140 to reach 2900 fps and this simply isn't true, especially with the 130 grain bullets.

Scot E.

 

[Sauer 150]

Scot,

I honestly do not think we are far off one another....

Pressure - since 6,5 Swede is a low pressure cartridge brass is not made very stong. I have seen flow in case heads with as little as 56-58K with some brass - loading them to another 6-8k - you will loosen primer pockets and blow out primers and that is very high pressures indeed.

1100y, 1,7s 6,5x284 was my assumption. Assumptions might well be the mother of all f*** u**s and I stand corrected. Regardless of cartridge if you have expantion down to 1200f/s you are covering quite a bit of ground even with one of the milder .264 cartridges and yes I am more than a bit scheptical to anyone claiming 9 out of 10 1 st round hits under field conditions within a 10" target at any range beyond 800y. I'm not by far a great LR shooter I'm happy with well centered 3 shot groups in the 3-5" range at 500m - but I do hang out with some of them that are. It was even performed a test for a swedish magazine almost 2 tears ago where some of the best shooters where invited to shoot 800m and beyond. Group size for all calibers from 6XC - through 338 LM was measured -and best 1 st round score on an eletronic target was given with distance from a perfect X hit.

From 800m and beyond only two out of 25 guys with very good LR experiance would have been able to score a killing 1 st shot hit at the 1000y mark. If we are looking at a 10" kill zone equalling 8%. If only 8% of the skilled ones are able then there is 92% of the ones training to and trying to that are not able. From what I can see here then there are bound to be a lot of poorly shot game every year.

It might be that you guys stateside have much better guns, are much better at doping wind, have better software available and so on - but I'm still very reluctant to believe there are such a large different in precentage of the individuals frequenting this forum who pocesses these abillities compared to on our side. Me actually landing on this site not just reading but also participating in the discussions was after being severly ****ed off by the many in my book "morons" blasting away in BOW style at wild game without being even close to having the proper background and skills to perform at the level needed to be ethical. And after that being short sighted enough to actually put it online as well for the entire world to see. Maybe I'm a tree hugger and a troll - but it seems that quite a few needs to have quite abit of ice water poored (no pun intendend) into their weins - and this is the place to do so.

However later this summer we might actualy find out how good or bad we are. Mr Litz and friends are coming over here the weekend August 3 through 5. And we will then probably see first hand what abilities the very best posess.

Fragile bullets - well hopefully Berger isn't going belly up anythime soon. My employer is one of the Norwegian reps for Berger ;-). My reluctance to use them is based on the fact that 95% of all shots presenting themselves on my side is usually shorter than 250y. Then fragile bullets causes massive wounds destroying (too) much edible meat.

But I have to admit I am not unaffected by the LR hype and last year I did have a clip of 168 Bergers ready for my 280 AI if the chance precented itself.

However it would be fun to see some of the best guys here - taking 1 shot each day for 10 days on a 3/4 Moa target at 1000y. That way we could see how many of the people here that are actually able to have a +90% sucessrate with 1st shot hits at 1000y on deer sized game. Anyone up for the challenge?? Have started a new thread on this. Please participate !

Today is your memorial day - correct? I wish to extend my best wishes to the men and women in active duty.

 

[bigngreen]

Fragile bullets - well hopefully Berger isn't going belly up anythime soon. My employer is one of the Norwegian reps for Berger ;-). My reluctance to use them is based on the fact that 95% of all shots presenting themselves on my side is usually shorter than 250y. Then fragile bullets causes massive wounds destroying (too) much edible meat.

I'm straight up meat hunting and I loose less meat with Bergers than Accubonds, it was a big part of my switching to Bergers. They aren't frangible like an V-max, they start coming apart after some penetration so what I've had is zero meat loss on the entrance and then a cleanly blown hole on the exit with some minor blood shot around the edges.

 

[Alan Griffith]

This post amazes me. Just when you think it's dead and buried; somewhat blows life back into it.

Alan

 

[bigngreen]

This post amazes me. Just when you think it's dead and buried; somewhat blows life back into it.

Alan

My bad!! The dang polls come back up and I didn't catch the last post date

 

[rtsj]

I originally picked 6.5-06 but wanted to chamber the Ackley Imp version instead , BUT after reading all 30+ pages i have now setteled on the 6.5 Sherman. Thanks Rich. McM is ordered and so is the Rock #3. Now just cant wait till the parts get here and then off the Karl for fluting then off to the smith for the finishing and cerakoting. Man o Man I cant wait. Like a kid at Christmas.gun)gun)

Roy

 

[Bart B]

How many grains of powder does the 6.5 Sherman use to get what velocity for bullets? Just curious. I think barrel life may well be about the same as a .264 Win. Mag; maybe less.

 

[elkaholic]

How many grains of powder does the 6.5 Sherman use to get what velocity for bullets? Just curious. I think barrel life may well be about the same as a .264 Win. Mag; maybe less.

Hi Bart! I currently have 1500 rounds thru my Sherman and it still shoots 1/2 moa or less. I shoot 63-64 grains of Retumbo, depending on the brass, for 3150' with either the 140 Berger or A-Max. 62 grains of RL 25 will accomplish the same as well as several other powders. This is with a 26" barrel. It will top out at 3200', but brass life is short at those pressures. (cmantha) on this forum also has one and I think he will confirm the velocities. He only has around 200 hundred rounds or so on his......Rich

 

[wildcat westerner]

A lot of people have posted to this title and I hope you won't mind if I add my two cents worth. I don't own a .260 Remington, but have seen a a couple perform, one at a long range class at Whittington to 1,280 yards. I was amazed at how well it did at that really long distance. I used a 6.5 x 284 for that class and have owned a 6.5 Remington magnum as a light mountain rifle since the mid 1970's. I am familiar with the .264 Winchester magnum and am aware that even larger cases than that are necked down to 6.5, but the reason for this escapes me in terms of the incredibly small gain in velocity to be gained and the incredible erosion you receive at the throat. Of course if your gunsmith's name is "DAD" and you don't mind setting a barrel back every 4-500 rounds this might not seem to be too much of a problem.

Everyone knows in HI-Power shooting that barrel life of a 6.5-284 is 1,000-1,100 rounds. That's it! Any larger case equals more throat erosion, some have radically worn out throats which equals poor accuracy and a rather substantial amount of reduced velocity. If your not worried about reduced velocity with this size bullet (120 to 160) then it might be time to rethink you priorities. The 6.5's work very well with 140 grain bullets which requirea 1-8 twist, also . When you take a .284 case and realize that you only have 1,000 rounds of useful accurate barrel life in 6.5, but use that same case in its full size, .284, and gain a huge increase in useable life of that chambering, it should be obvious that case capacity is the max for all practical purposes for the 6.5. Anything larger, plan on talking to "DAD" more often, if your an active shooter.

I do believe if your case capacity is larger and you prefer to use a larger case you would be much better with a larger, heavier bullet (7mm, .30 or .338). While I could hit the 1,280 yard target with my 6.5 x 284 the unarguable difference between the impact of a 140 grain bullet at that distance and a 180 from a .300 Ultra was almost laughable in terms of how vigorously that steel plate reacted when hit with the .30 caliber, heavier bullet moving at higher velocity.'

So, even though I do not own a .260 rifle I am impressed with the performance for its size and almost certainly a 6.5-06 is almost overrbore already for this size a bullet.

Thank you for your attention in this matter.

Gene S.

 

[WildRose]

My bad!! The dang polls come back up and I didn't catch the last post date

Eh as you can see from the replies that followed yours this is still a good thread.gun)

 

[CliffM]

rtsj

You're gonna love it!
This is the first 6.5 anything that I have shot and it is way fun compared to the 300Wby. The round count is up to a little over 500 now. I think I need to go to the bulk packs.
I used Rich's load of 63gr Retumbo/140 Berger @3150 for 2011 hunting season-outstanding! For rocks and gongs-140 Nosler Custom Competition bullets with 60gr H1000 coasts along at 3050. Both will hold 1/3 Moa past 1000yds.
One of the nicest things if you get the Hornady match die set is they fit Rich's reamer to a tee. Sizing barley moves to brass at all.
I guess the best thing I can say about it is I am going to have another one built when I can.
Cliff