TARGET BULLETS ARE NOT HUNTING BULLETS!

What makes them fall motionless and dead when the CNS isn't affected directly by the shot?
like a double lung behind the shoulder shot?

Phil, for what it's worth…..I have a couple for you! Although, these were small bull elk, not deer. Though I've shot deer and Antelope at distance that showed minimal if any "bullet shock"!

One: behind the shoulder @ about 25 yards…..energy north of 4800ft/lbs @ impact

Another: behind the shoulder @ about 70 yards…..energy north of 4500 ft/lbs @ impact

Neither showed any sign of the hit, though neither went far.

One simply started to run, immediately piled-up
The other continued to walk for about 10 or 15 yards and tipped over

I've shared this before….it's an interesting read about "energy"! memtb

https://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/politics.html
 
What makes them fall motionless and dead when the CNS isn't affected directly by the shot?
like a double lung behind the shoulder shot?
Hypovolemia. Hypovolemic shock or lack of blood pressure due to blood loss is generally the main mechanism. How many times have we seen videos of a double lung or heart shot elk just stand there after being hit. They start to get wobbly, stagger around and just fall over----hopefully. Of course a CNS (central nervous system) shot changes all that, as does major bone destruction. Energy transfer does not happen all at once. It occurs as the bullet's velocity is reduced during penetration. The biggest advantage to high energy impacts is temporary cavitation which can result in extensive tissue damage and faster blood loss.
I'm not a veterinarian but I do teach wound ballistics to law enforcement as it pertains to terminal handgun/rifle ballistics and , on a different scale, think it pretty much figures into anything that breathes air and has blood.

Sorry guys, not trying to start any debates or arguments. Just stating what I know about and what I believe to be true. Who knows? I could be completely wrong.:eek:
 
My experience tells me that Roy Weatherby was right from the beginning. "Velocity kills", with a properly expanded bullet, of course. The higher the velocity, the faster the incapacitation, all other variables being equal.

I think the slowest kills that I've experienced have been from my muzzleloader. The bullets are certainly wide enough and heavy enough but they lack speed. High velocity impacts seem to disrupt the CNS even if the bullet doesn't impact in a CNS area.

Big & slow certainly gets the job done but doesn't seem to incapacitate as quickly.

Just my observations.
 
My experience tells me that Roy Weatherby was right from the beginning. "Velocity kills", with a properly expanded bullet, of course. The higher the velocity, the faster the incapacitation, all other variables being equal.

I think the slowest kills that I've experienced have been from my muzzleloader. The bullets are certainly wide enough and heavy enough but they lack speed. High velocity impacts seem to disrupt the CNS even if the bullet doesn't impact in a CNS area.

Big & slow certainly gets the job done but doesn't seem to incapacitate as quickly.

Just my observations.
i couldn't agree more. fast and expanding makes whatever "it" is happen more often.
Dads 257 STW has a proven track record. For DRT at ranges to 350. Point and shoot, all 6-8 shots per year.
 
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Phil, for what it's worth…..I have a couple for you! Although, these were small bull elk, not deer. Though I've shot deer and Antelope at distance that showed minimal if any "bullet shock"!

One: behind the shoulder @ about 25 yards…..energy north of 4800ft/lbs @ impact

Another: behind the shoulder @ about 70 yards…..energy north of 4500 ft/lbs @ impact

Neither showed any sign of the hit, though neither went far.

One simply started to run, immediately piled-up
The other continued to walk for about 10 or 15 yards and tipped over

I've shared this before….it's an interesting read about "energy"! memtb

https://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/politics.html
memtb,
I just read that article and it states what a lot of us know and have believed for a while now. In a former life I was a cop and a firearms tech for a larger PD and have always been a fan Dr. Fackler and other like Gene Wolberg of San Diego PD. I was also a Vietnam era medic and have seen enough gunshot wounds to last me for a while. I am NOT a fan of Sanow and Marshall's studies but, like the article stated, they believed what they were preaching. I knew Evan Marshall fairly well and have had many a discussion with him over a glass of good bourbon. The problem was, at that time, there was no empirical data to support a detailed argument on either side other than the NIJ study based on temporary cavitation which was based on faulty data from the start. I've shot a lot of gelatin in the last 40 years and have reviewed a lot of shootings. A lot of research and design has gone into bullet construction and design in the last 25-30 years but we still don't have that magic bullet.
 
Hypovolemia. Hypovolemic shock or lack of blood pressure due to blood loss is generally the main mechanism. How many times have we seen videos of a double lung or heart shot elk just stand there after being hit. They start to get wobbly, stagger around and just fall over----hopefully. Of course a CNS (central nervous system) shot changes all that, as does major bone destruction. Energy transfer does not happen all at once. It occurs as the bullet's velocity is reduced during penetration. The biggest advantage to high energy impacts is temporary cavitation which can result in extensive tissue damage and faster blood loss.
I'm not a veterinarian but I do teach wound ballistics to law enforcement as it pertains to terminal handgun/rifle ballistics and , on a different scale, think it pretty much figures into anything that breathes air and has blood.

Sorry guys, not trying to start any debates or arguments. Just stating what I know about and what I believe to be true. Who knows? I could be completely wrong.:eek:
wonder if these dramatic one shot drops are "between heartbeats" or whatever the timing is that caused that football players heart issue on the field, the one that was revived in time.?
 
My experience tells me that Roy Weatherby was right from the beginning. "Velocity kills", with a properly expanded bullet, of course. The higher the velocity, the faster the incapacitation, all other variables being equal.
I agree 100%, faster the impact velocity + faster deceleration of the bullet = wider the destruction or cavity made by bullet.

Match your estimated impact velocity with your bullet construction (tipped match bullets😎) to achieve desired penetration.
 
My experience with most of the hpbt you mentioned has been very similar to that i have witnessed using the SMK. Smaller then 30 cal and you really start to see inconsistent terminal performance. One example may be perfect expansion, next, pencil hole through from impact to exit, next could be total bullet break up on impact or very shallow. Honestly, the most common issue i have seen is penciling through target….. punch lungs, you have a dead animal but you may have a mile long tracking job…..

above 30 cal and especially 338 and above, performance changes dramatically. Now that may simply be due to the larger frontal area
and higher energy payload displacing more vital tissue through penetration even if expansion is limited but end results are more consistent.

for this reason, i tend to stay away from the conventional HPBT designs for big game hunting.

now as soon as i type this someone will be hollaring about me mentioning bergers……. Jacket thickness is a big issue. Bergers tend to run pretty thin, even their thicker match versions. They have been significantly thinner then sierras as well as the hornady HPBT i have measured. Similar to nosler but nosler jackets seem to be harder.

again, this all comes down to matching the bullet to the velocity range and game to be hunted.

if i were making a recommendation to a customer using my 7mm Allen Magnum for use on pronghorn and deer, pretty much any quality bullet will work. If they want to use that rifle on a mule deer/elk combo hunt, my recommendation would be significantly different focused more on the elk then deer.

had an example of this last week. Shipped a customers 338 Allen Magnum. For those that dont know, this is one of my wildcats based off the huge 408 cheytac parent case. 300 gr berger hybrids are my standard choice even for long range hunting with velocity potentials in the 3300-3400 fps ranges. This particular customer wanted the ability to engage bull elk at any range from 0 to 1500 yards.

well the berger would do great from 800 to +2000 yards but inside 800, and especially inside 500 yards, you would be asking for trouble as far as penetration would be concerned. As such recommended either the 285 gr Hammer or 280 gr barnes LRX as i have tested both and proven they both would easily handle his 0 to 1500 yard requirements with great terminal performance.

now if it would have been one of my 338 Allen Xpress, again the berger 300 gr is my go to choice for this one, but now velocities would be in the 2900-3000 fps range. With this round, you may still need to be a bit careful with shot placement inside 200 yards but not nearly the issues as the 338 Allen Magnum would have with its 400-500 fps higher muzzle velocities.

then compare that to something like a 338 rum or 340 wby and loaded with a 300 gr berger you would be in the 2700-2800 fps range and at those velocities, your good at nearly any close range impacts.

with that said, if your intentionally hunting game such as elk and moose and want the ability to take close range shots on possibly hard angling targets, there would be no reason to choose ANY HPBT bullet design with the great bullet options we have today for high stress impact situations.

again, most bullets will have their advantages and disadvantages, no bullet is perfect in all situations, some are pretty good at most but if we can set our rifles up for use from 0 to 2000 yards, choosing a proper bullet for our needs should not be that much of a challange, especially with the wealth of information we have at our finger tips today. 👍
Very well stated Sir. Matching the bullet with the proper cartridge / velocity and in accordance with the game you're hunting is all part of being a good ethical hunter. Your discussion mentions issues "close up" with very fast magnum cartridges but the same consideration pops up with more traditional cartridges and velocities. My Son and I have had tremendous results with the non-bonded Sierra Game King and Hornady ELD-M bullets in the great old .270 Winchester, and also the 6.5-284.

A few years ago he cleanly killed a good-sized Spike Elk at 702 yards with one shot from his 6.5-284 using the 147 ELD-M loaded warm, right at 3K FPS. The Elk was hit behind the fold of the shoulder and impact was a bit high of center. We'd practiced out to 1,200 yards so, with the good weather conditions and solid prone position he had, this was an ethical shot for him. The Bull lifted one front leg when the bullet hit, as if he was going to run . . . but then dropped in his tracks. He kicked his back legs twice then was DRT. This was not a spine shot. We've had other impressive results with Elk, Mule Deer and Pronghorn.

The ELD-M's (and A-Max before them in 6.5mm) have performed consistently but, as you say, when "up close" the standard cup and core projectiles are not necessarily the best choice. For shots at 200 and less we shoot a bonded bullet and it's surprised us to find the bonded pills really need no scope or hold adjustment. They impact very close to the same place at 200 (and closer) with the Game Kings or ELD-M's. Past 200 the more fragile bullets perform really well. We wait and don't hit shoulders on entry, (quartering toward) but they plow through just fine on exit (quartering away).

Thanks for posting your results and sharing your experiences with us.

Happy hunting!
 
wonder if these dramatic one shot drops are "between heartbeats" or whatever the timing is that caused that football players heart issue on the field, the one that was revived in time.?
Phil, I think a lot of them are either a direct CNS or possibly a sudden shock to the spinal cord. I have heard stories (especially in Africa) where a critter hits the dirt like a wet washrag but gets back to it's feet a couple of minutes later and heads for the bush. In both of the cases I have actually witnessed, a vertebrae was clipped by the bullet but it did not severe the spinal cord. I have heard stories of elk doing the same. Terminal ballistic effect on big game is hard to predict. I think that's why bullets are generally designed around a few know factors, however a bad shot, even with a great bullet will fail to close the deal.
 
one thing stands out here, and i'm not picking and choosing when i say this, but, inconsistency is a RED flag for Me.
A bad "lot" of bullets recognized by the manufacturer is one thing, bad shot placement sure, but no measure of consistency is another entirely.
That would constitute a "next" with me.

Perhaps a move back to a more proven "hunting" bullet would be a solid first step.
When whatever bullet lands where it needs to, and yet presents with 2 totally different results concerning the way it expands/penetrates I would be OUT.
Too many other choices available.
One thing I've noticed is that the better known competition bullet makers don't hold the same B.t.O. tolerance with their hunting bullets of a similar name as their match bullets. I load everything as if it's a match. I measure each bullets B.t.O. and sort them. Match bullets have very consistent values. Similar bullets with Hunting in the name vary as much as .010 (those are rare, .006 - .003 is typical. I'm not saying that they toss the match culls in a box and label it hunting :) because I woudn't know... I just see it when I measure.
 
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Hypovolemia. Hypovolemic shock or lack of blood pressure due to blood loss is generally the main mechanism. How many times have we seen videos of a double lung or heart shot elk just stand there after being hit. They start to get wobbly, stagger around and just fall over----hopefully. Of course a CNS (central nervous system) shot changes all that, as does major bone destruction. Energy transfer does not happen all at once. It occurs as the bullet's velocity is reduced during penetration. The biggest advantage to high energy impacts is temporary cavitation which can result in extensive tissue damage and faster blood loss.
I'm not a veterinarian but I do teach wound ballistics to law enforcement as it pertains to terminal handgun/rifle ballistics and , on a different scale, think it pretty much figures into anything that breathes air and has blood.

Sorry guys, not trying to start any debates or arguments. Just stating what I know about and what I believe to be true. Who knows? I could be completely wrong.:eek:
As a former EMT, I couldn't agree more.
 

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