Gel Test Data part 2

[QuietTexan]

Apples to oranges. The Hammer has a 300 fps advantage.

The fruit here is a case driven to it's max potential, using two different bullet designs. Since the velocity difference is the a result of bullet design, it is apples to apples because like Steve said they're maxing out the case with both bullets. We're choosing a bullet to run in a case, not choosing the case itself.

Apples to oranges would be running the Hammer in a 300 WM and the Berger in a 300 RUM to match muzzle velocities and let the impact velocities fall where they may. That's case selection, and Hammers widen the range of utility for smaller chamberings because the bullet design runs faster. I'm pushing 69 AHs to almost 3000 FPS from a 6 BR pistol and that'll do a whitetail any day of the week inside 200 yards; not a case I'd run a 100gn Interlock out of at any distance.

 

[Lou270]

So if I read this correctly, the Berger design is to tumble as soon as possible in impact? Tumbling bullets do extensive damage, but are unpredictable in direction of travel.

Not really tumble on bergers, but come apart. I would not count on any straight penetration after that happens, but lot of damage where it does. As soon as bullet enters the much more dense medium it will start to yaw. As a bullet yaws more surface area is presented and more drag/resistance is experienced. With sufficient velocity (pressure) and thin jacket the tip will collapse or bend and rupture the jacket and all heck breaks loose. The part where the bullet penetrates before coming apart or tumbling is called the narrow channel or neck. This can be longer depending on stability but typically a few inches at typical ranges. If there is not enough velocity or jacket too thick to rupture at that point the bullet will continue to yaw until it swaps ends. This can still be a pretty good wound as the increase in surface area doesnt matter if from an expanded bullet or sideways one. In the case of tumbling, the tip can break off or if there is a cannelure the bullet can break in half at that point with core becoming additional projectiles.

So in a sense lower stabiltity at impact is good for that type of bullet. There is not a wide enough hollow point, lead tip, etc… to initiate expansion. Barbour creek has a good video of berger at 30 yards and 500 yards. You can see it has big damage after couple inches at 30 yards and what looks like 6" or so at longer range. Of course target resistance (ie soft vs bone) will also determine how fast something comes apart so these are generalities

Lou

 

[adam32+P]

The fruit here is a case driven to it's max potential, using two different bullet designs. Since the velocity difference is the a result of bullet design, it is apples to apples because like Steve said they're maxing out the case with both bullets. We're choosing a bullet to run in a case, not choosing the case itself.

Apples to oranges would be running the Hammer in a 300 WM and the Berger in a 300 RUM to match muzzle velocities and let the impact velocities fall where they may. That's case selection, and Hammers widen the range of utility for smaller chamberings because the bullet design runs faster. I'm pushing 69 AHs to almost 3000 FPS from a 6 BR pistol and that'll do a whitetail any day of the week inside 200 yards; not a case I'd run a 100gn Interlock out of at any distance.

Except that's not how testing bullets works. If you want apples to apples then start with the same or close muzzle velocity.

I know what Steve is getting at, hence why he didn't use his 214gr bullet.

Either way, it's a nice test to see. I'm glad Steve is doing the work and sharing his results. It definitely gets the mind going.

I have a stack of hammers, eldms and bergers for my 338 rum. If I get some time soon I'll load them up to the same velocity and see what pans out for drift at 600 on paper.

 

[jessej]

Except that's not how testing bullets works. If you want apples to apples then start with the same or close muzzle velocity.

Not exactly. At least in my feeble mind.

Say I have 2 equal weight bullets. One has a bearing surface that allows that it to be pushed 200fps faster than the other. Should I download it to get test results?

Let's grossly exaggerate this example.
In the future, when someone develops a projo that is capable of 1000 gos more than all other projos,
Should we download it to existing velocity limitations to determine if it's a good, or better, bullet?

I'm still new in the hammer game, but so far what I see is, what slickness they lack in the air, they make up for with slickness in the barrel.
I will add, I'm developing a load with the un named 215s in a rum that will stay above the "required" 1000lb energy threshold past 1400 yards, down here at sea level. Every bullet has its place.

 

[adam32+P]

Not exactly. At least in my feeble mind.

Say I have 2 equal weight bullets. One has a bearing surface that allows that it to be pushed 200fps faster than the other. Should I download it to get test results?

Let's grossly exaggerate this example.
In the future, when someone develops a projo that is capable of 1000 gos more than all other projos,
Should we download it to existing velocity limitations to determine if it's a good, or better, bullet?

I'm still new in the hammer game, but so far what I see is, what slickness they lack in the air, they make up for with slickness in the barrel.
I will add, I'm developing a load with the un named 215s in a rum that will stay above the "required" 1000lb energy threshold past 1400 yards, down here at sea level. Every bullet has its place.

Except it wasn't equal bullet weights being tested.

 

[Andrew Massi]

Apples to oranges. The Hammer has a 300 fps advantage.

Take a 200gr Berger and run it 300 fps faster than the Hammer and see what happens.

Shoot a 150gr round nose at the same velocity as a 150gr VLD and tell me BC doesn't have any advantages.

BC absolutely matters in LONG range hunting. To say otherwise is simply false.

Or In this example a full house 300 rum load for the hammer and the "competitor" cough berger cough at 300 win mag velocities.

 

[ButterBean]

Its the same principle we have always used no matter what type of mono is used , The lighter mono is in the same basket of apples as the heavy cup and core

 

[RockyMtnUT]

Its the same principle we have always used no matter what type of mono is used , The lighter mono is in the same basket of apples as the heavy cup and core

Interesting, though I politely don't concur




con·cur
/kənˈkər/

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Curious why you didn't use your 214HH vs 215Berger? Thanks
Seems like a red apple to red apple?

I guess I chose what I thought was the most effective bullet we offer for the 300 rum. At over 3400 fps there is not much that can run with the 199g Hammer Hunter. Also the 214g Hammer Hunter would not be able to mag feed. It is too long.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

I guess I chose what I thought was the most effective bullet we offer for the 300 rum. At over 3400 fps there is not much that can run with the 199g Hammer Hunter. Also the 214g Hammer Hunter would not be able to mag feed. It is too long.

I understand, but with all being equal I would think to compare weight class as close to equal as possible? Just like you did with FPS, you got that as close as you could is all I'm saying. Thanks

 

[ButterBean]

Interesting, though I politely don't concur




con·cur
/kənˈkər/

To each their own, that's what makes America great

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Not really tumble on bergers, but come apart. I would not count on any straight penetration after that happens, but lot of damage where it does. As soon as bullet enters the much more dense medium it will start to yaw. As a bullet yaws more surface area is presented and more drag/resistance is experienced. With sufficient velocity (pressure) and thin jacket the tip will collapse or bend and rupture the jacket and all heck breaks loose. The part where the bullet penetrates before coming apart or tumbling is called the narrow channel or neck. This can be longer depending on stability but typically a few inches at typical ranges. If there is not enough velocity or jacket too thick to rupture at that point the bullet will continue to yaw until it swaps ends. This can still be a pretty good wound as the increase in surface area doesnt matter if from an expanded bullet or sideways one. In the case of tumbling, the tip can break off or if there is a cannelure the bullet can break in half at that point with core becoming additional projectiles.

So in a sense lower stabiltity at impact is good for that type of bullet. There is not a wide enough hollow point, lead tip, etc… to initiate expansion. Barbour creek has a good video of berger at 30 yards and 500 yards. You can see it has big damage after couple inches at 30 yards and what looks like 6" or so at longer range. Of course target resistance (ie soft vs bone) will also determine how fast something comes apart so these are generalities

Lou

If this is the case then all the years that I have heard that the tip needs to be opened up is useless info? I personally would much rather have a bullet that consistently opens from the inside out and remains nose 1st for predictable straight line penetration. Particularly shots that are quartering.

 

[ButterBean]

So the test should have been the 214HH vs the 215 both loaded to max velocity ? If so I see that as an unfair advantage to the Hammer

 

[RockyMtnUT]

So the test should have been the 214HH vs the 215 both loaded to max velocity ? If so I see that as an unfair advantage to the Hammer

Equal velocities top end, and low? But equal weight is all. (Equal velocities like what was done in the case study.) I don't understand the logic in comparing if they are not equals or as close as we can? The results may very well be similar I don't know.