Tuning for long range

I would avoid the SS pin cleaning. Yes you can go back and lube the necks, but the lube you use will show up huge in your groups. You will not know how it will shoot by seating force numbers. Say you use a colloidal graphite to lube you necks. Try 2 different brands, they may have similar seating force but huge differences on target. As a general rule, if you do not want put a lot of time experimenting to find something that will work as good as leaving the carbon in the necks, just leave the carbon in the neck :) Polish it with a stiff nylon brush in a drill. After a few firings you will have a nice layer that will give very good seating consistency and accuracy. If you must have clean cases, the redding powdered graphite seems to be one of the better neck lubes for accuracy across different rifles that I have tried. An interesting note is the particular lube that reduces seating force the most, has always shot terrible in every rifle I have tested it in. But if you just went by how nice the bullets seat, you would pick it every time.
I agree completely, I stopped cleaning my brass years ago and I have never looked back. I just clean the case shoulder and neck with steel wool before full length sizing. I use home made lanolin spray for the case lube and clean out the necks after sizing with alcohol and a Q tip. The carbon I leave inside the neck and like Alex I have tried using graphite inside the necks but my ES was worse using it. So I don't argue with doing less steps and getting better results. Try that liquid lanolin spray, I was amazed at how well it worked.
Don't over clean the inside of the necks with alcohol though just a quick wipe to get the lanolin off, you want to leave the carbon. I find if you clean it too much the bullet will bind to the brass after time and that is what makes your ES get worse. Try seating some of your old bullets down and you will see some of your bullets will be quite a bit harder to push down than others.
 
I figured I'd take some time to share how I go about tuning a new rifle intended for long range hunting. I'll say up front I have tried every method out there and have settled on this one for a few reasons. First, it works. It has always provided me with loads that perform. Its fast and easy. Most times I can tune a hunting rifle in less that 20 rounds. I have 100% faith it the method, when I was still competing in 1000 yard Benchrest I would shoot a ladder the night before every match and load exactly what the ladder told me. That year I set 2 group aggregate world records. It would not have happened without the ladders.
When you get your new rifle, load a light load and go put 100 rounds on the barrel. Use this time to get the scope setup, break in the barrel, and learn the rifle. Most barrels will change in that first 100 or so shots and you will be re-tuning if you find a load right away. I have been down that road so many times that I just dont try and cheat it anymore. You should also take some cases and work up .5 grains at a time until you hit pressure (stiff bolt lift). If you MUST do some load work before 100 rounds just play with seating depth but dont fall in love. Once you have that first 100 down and you know where pressure is in your barrel it time to load a ladder test. I would have to assume we have a basic knowledge of what powders, primers, and bullets seem to work well in the case we're loading for. I will usually pick 2 powders and load ladders with powder charges spaced .6%. So for a case that holds an 80 grain charge you would go in .5 grain incidents. Load about 10 cases ending just under your max. Example for a 28 Nosler with an 89 grain max
84
84.5
85
85.5
86
86.5
87
87.5
88
88.5

Usually this will show you your upper node and the next one down. I didn't mention seating depth. Here I will say I usually always find accuracy just in or just off the lands. I will start with a seating depth that I know that bullet seems to like. Certain bullets do in my experience seem to like the similar seating depths across many rifles. I will list a few examples
215 Breger Hybrid .010" off
195 Berger Hybrid .015" off
300 Breger hybrid .015" in
180 Berger Hybrid .020" off
If its a new to me bullet and there is no good data I will usually start .010" off, unless its really long like the 300 or 230, then I will put it .015" in. For some reason those long heavy bullets have responded very well to being in the lands. I have never pulled a bullet, I do not use very light neck tension. I have found most rifles will shoot best with more. I typically start with .003". Do nothing to the inside of your necks other than brush with a stiff nylon brush, do NOT remove the carbon from inside your necks.
Im no writer and have bounced around, but I will tell you how to perform the ladder now. So you have your 10 loaded cases. Color from the ogive to the tip with a sharpie. Blue, red, green, and yellow are best. Record the colors so you know what they are and you will have to repeat their use because we dont have 10 colors to use. But you will be able to tell what are what, as the hotter ones usually will climb the target. Use your judgement on the range at which to shoot. If things are decent I will go to 600 if they are not great I will go to 300, but never less. You need to use your chrony for this. Use a clean white piece of paper, butchers paper works well or the back of a target. Fire all the rounds at the same aim point. adjust your scope so they print off to the side so you can read them better. With ladders we are looking for bullets to climb, then for 2-3 shots to stop and form a group before starting back up the target. Those spots where the shots level out also have to correspond with a flat spot in velocity to work for a hunting rifle. We are looking for the spot the barrel has given us leeway in load variations as well as a flat spot in velocity which will provide us with good ES. You then pick a powder charge in the middle of that flat spot and adjust seating depth if needed to achieve the accuracy your after.

I must note that this method requires a well built rifle that is capable of good accuracy. We are depending on the rifle to pet every shot where it should go. I would not recommend shooting a ladder with a 1moa rifle, there will be too much built in vertical to make sense of it. Also you must be capable of breaking good shots, and choosing a day worthy of testing. If you test on a bad day with highs winds or mirage you will end up chasing your tail. It does not need to be perfect, but it needs to be decent. This was a lot of typing but I guarantee you if you do it in a controlled manner you will love the accuracy and efficiency of the process. Im sure I missed something, but Im just tired of typing at this point. Im happy to answer any questions...
I'm fairly new to handloading. I had a load developed that my builder helped me with, but I've never tried it on my own.

I wanted to change bullets and develop a new load on my own. I tried your method and it worked nicely for me! Just wanted to say thank you, this has been very helpful for me and now I have a better understanding of the process! 👍👍
 
I too have tried marking the bullets, but I used Sharpie's and there was not enough transfered to ID shots...does the type of marker make the difference?
When I pull my target, I take a Qtip with rubbing alcohol and touch each hole.
The color will bleed out of the edge of the hole and make a halo of color a round the hole.
 
When I pull my target, I take a Qtip with rubbing alcohol and touch each hole.
The color will bleed out of the edge of the hole and make a halo of color a round the hole.

A magnifying glass really brings the color out also. Paper must not be the slick surface. Needs to be rough.

IMO pin guages were a total waste of time and money. Tried them for months. Just anneal with quality annealer and process. I loved the 21st Century Arbor press with force guage. Must easier to tell a harder seating one.
 
IMO pin guages were a total waste of time and money. Tried them for months.

Not sure what you were doing with them "for months"?

I use them to spot check the necks, particularly when (re)setting up to load a different cartridge. Definitely not something I used every single round... but when things start getting weird, they're one of the first things I grab to start diagnosing the problem.

Given what they cost ($7-8 off Amazon, x2 or 3 per caliber) they aren't exactly a huge investment.
 
I've been approaching the same issue using similar methods, except that
1)I use a target that has several smaller targets attached to it and shoot each charge to a different target. It's easy to compare where they hit when each of the targets has its own bullet hole, and there's no question which one was which. I see this doesn't work on a long range, because you would end up having several huge targets :D
2)I've shot at 100 meters, which is closest to my average hunting distance, the 100 meters shooting range is easy to access, and also because at shorter range the wind does not screw up the test that easily. I think I'll do my next try on 150, 200 or 300 meters, if I can access a longer range.
3)I usually prepare 2-3 loads for each charge; partly because that shows how the grouping looks and if I screw up one shot, I have spare ones. Although I must admit that if I have let's say 11 different charges and 2 of each, it takes time and concentration to shoot them without heating the barrel too much or losing concentration.

About the distance; according to my limited understanding, performing a test at long range requires excellent conditions. A very light wind can throw the bullet 2-3 inches at 300 meters, which is a lot when you're trying to compare between different loads and when the distance gets longer, the mechanical accuracy grows proportionally and the effect of wind grows exponentially. Although I think someone said somewhere that this test mainly tries to find the optimal node in vertical spread, and the horizontal is taken care of modifying the seating depth.

Anyways, very much appreciated and keep the good stuff coming.
 

Alex, I have a couple questions concerning variations on your case neck brushing and ladder test:

1. I also only brush the inside of my case necks, but there's often a small amount of Lee case lube that gets inside because when I lube my cases for sizing, I just put a dab of lee case lube in a tupperware container along with my cases and then I shake it around to get the lube spread over the cases. What sort of an effect do you think this small amount of lee case lube would have on my ES?

2. I use a lee factory crimp die on every reload. Can you comment on the potential effects of that in combination with only brushing the case necks in regard to ES?

3. I don't have a chrono. If I want to do your ladder test method at 300 yards without a chrono (don't plan to shoot passed 500 yards at game), would it suffice to look for the node that gives me the least vertical dispersion and then test that load for group size at distance?
 
Ok after all this great knowledge here, I'm finally at a point I'm going to try not SS pin tumbling. I also got the more proper neck turning cutter to help with the donut issues because the cutter that comes with the tool was a 55* and it was hard to get the donut, hopefully I'm not going too far and blow the necks off!!

But anyway I have found this thread and a bunch of others really helpful with things on load development. I have since then found great loads with 2 powders so far. The first is 55.4gr re26 cci200 with the 147eldm loaded to 2.264cbto with an average velocity of 3031, 2) is 54.7gr re26 with fed210m with the 147eldm loaded to the same 2.264cbto with an average velocity of 3015, this one shot GREAT! And with changing primers to the fed210m I was able to drop the charge weight down and save on powder and slow the bullet down a bit as here is where I started to see the eldms blow up on me. 3) 53.4gr re23 with cci200 with the 147eldm seated at the same 2.264cbto! This one also shot well and has proven to be very accurate out to almost 1,100yrds, 1,083 to be exact.
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Bottom two was 2 days ago and I messed up and pulled the very last shot! I really need to "true" or get these bullets BC figured out because I'm aiming in the center and hitting high about 11-1/2" to 11-3/4" high. What is a good way to figure that out?
Also probably switch to the Berger 156 because the eldms are blowing up here and there, might get some Cutting Edge bullets too, thinking of their 125 Maximus bullets since they're fairly affordable.

Or would the Barnes 127lrx be pretty good?
What I'm hunting is whitetail deer.

Probably will be doing load development on the new Federal 130 Terminal Ascent too soon.
 
Alex, I have a couple questions concerning variations on your case neck brushing and ladder test:

1. I also only brush the inside of my case necks, but there's often a small amount of Lee case lube that gets inside because when I lube my cases for sizing, I just put a dab of lee case lube in a tupperware container along with my cases and then I shake it around to get the lube spread over the cases. What sort of an effect do you think this small amount of lee case lube would have on my ES?

2. I use a lee factory crimp die on every reload. Can you comment on the potential effects of that in combination with only brushing the case necks in regard to ES?

3. I don't have a chrono. If I want to do your ladder test method at 300 yards without a chrono (don't plan to shoot passed 500 yards at game), would it suffice to look for the node that gives me the least vertical dispersion and then test that load for group size at distance?
1.
I dont know for sure since I have not done it, see #3
2.
Again I have not done this, but I recommend full length sizing. Properly.
3.
If your max is 500yds forget ES, it wont mean a thing at that range. You will be fine shooting a small group at what ever range you choose. Grouping usually wont fall apart until close to 1k.
 
If you have to shoot at 100 you are stuck shooting groups. Draw a horizontal line and put your aim points on that line. While shooting 3 shot groups you will see the poi shift up and down in a wave. That tells you where the barrel is pointing when the bullets are exiting. Look for a good load just before the highest point on that wave. You will have to test it for ES. You will have to shoot more at 100 and it may not pan out at long range, but if you find a good load just before the high point in the sine wave you should be close. Do not be afraid to tweak powder charges at distance if you see too much vertical. Under 20 on the ES is acceptable. 15-20 is a realistic goal.

I just came across this thread and just want to say thank you for the incredible info.
I have a question going way back to this post here... It's obvious to me how this would be much easier to read by shooting at distance, but if someone is stuck at shooting 100 yards, are the 3 shot groups still consecutively increased powder charges per cartridge? And then you read the impacts on the target between the various aim points as a wave? Looking for the poi to climb and then level and drop?
 
It can be hard to visualize whats happening. We want the barrel traveling up when our bullets are exiting. You know this is happening when you increase powder charge and the poi drops. Faster bullets leave lower than slower ones when the barrel is traveling up. You best grouping will usually happen at some point very near where the barrel stops and changes direction (top or bottom). My original description may not have been the best because it will be hard to see small poi changes in a hunting rifle platform. Focus on the high and low points of the wave. Once you find a good load, I would also load some a few tenths on both sides of it and test it at distance to see if it holds up and if not, which way it wants you to go. If you have no access to shoot past 100yds at all, then you have no way to verify your load at long range and I would limit shots to 500 or so.
 

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