Video On Bump sizing cases.

[Don A Parsons]

Thanks again JE,,, Its funny that the both of us are on the same path at the same time,,, the only way i will know if this partial FL will work is when I give it a try at the range...

And yes,,, don't under estimate the Lee Collet neck only die,,, they come with a outter floating sizing ring that allows the brass cases to center its self before pinching down on the neck,,, even the inner expander is floating as well...

That is correct,,, the Lee neck collet die is a frugal price compared to precision compation dies at 2 or 3 X's the cost,,, but those collet dies have performed for my 308 and 30/06 exceptional well...

Normally I can get 2 to 3 firings out of the cases before i start to feel that they are expanding to much to fit into the chamber,,, I run them through the FL die at that point and return to the Lee collet neck sizing die for the next 2 or 3 firings,,, of course this is when Im runing at maximum pressure...

If i drop down to the next lower node i can normally pull off 5 to 7 firings before i have to bump the shoulder back,,, normally 0.001 thou for target shooting ammo,,, a bit more bump back if I'm using it for hunting...

I prefer neck sizing since my brass seems to last alot longer... but like i mentioned in my early post,,, i dont like to feel any restriction on the bolt handle when i close it,,, perhaps i found the sweet spot for both of these rifles,,, I'm working on my 6.5 A-Square this year to get it to perform like these other rifles...

I agree with one thing,,, find what works and stick with it,,, what works for me might not pan out for the next person,,, the best bang for my buck last year was completing the reloader course II,,, the coach that worked with us kept it simple,,, measure our measuring tools to make sure that they are spot on,,, then check the cases,,, run-out,,, neck tension,,, and a few other things...

Don't over think it in some areas,,, don't leave out the steps that show the best performance from our reloads... take care of the major stuff first,,, then if we have time we can chase the small stuff to tigthen things up a bit more """if""" we choose to...

Thanks JE,,, nothing like refreshing a few ideas at my work bench...

Cheers from the North

 

[cajun]

Erik Cortina went down the line asking basically every shooter at the F class nationals
Did they fls. 100% fls .002 shoulder bump. I think these cats know a thing or three about loading for accuracy.

 

[J E Custom]

This post Is just to clarify My position on all of my post of this subject for those that can't seem to understand my reasoning for neck sizing my accuracy loads and many of my hunting loads.

I have laid out my loading procedures as clear as I can, And described the reason. I have shone many different VIDEO'S to show the many variations that others use to try and point out that there is not just one way to do things, and that the way I do things is just One of those ways.

I have also tried to explain that for different types of firearms different methods are required If a person want's the best performance. Performance is many things combined, and accuracy Is just one of them.

With out exception, all of my most accurate weapons/firearms use some form of Neck sized only ammo. I have known world class shooters and competed with some and find no need to quote them of what they tell everyone for a validation of my/their method. I only know what works for me In my rifles. So until I find something that improves on the method I now use, I will continue to get the best accuracy and performance from my firearms by sizing the way they like, not the easiest or the way someone says is better.

There is one thing I will never try or do though. I will never go to all the trouble of building any rifle as precision as I can, then load precision/concentric ammo and size it to fit like a rat turd in a violin case. Mainly because I don't hunt or shoot with a violin case. And cant imagine the accuracy potential of that system. Also I can't imagine a bench rest shooter doing anything sloppy. They are the most anal of all shooters and are absolute perfectionist (at least all the ones that helped me get started).

So don't anyone wast their time trying to tell me what method is the best in my firearms, prove it and explain why and how. Everyone has their way of loading that works best for them and should stick with it. those that are interested in finding something to improve their accuracy should do impartial and unbiased testing in their firearms the decide which method works best for them. I have a very accurate rifle In 7/08 that i has worked up ant thought it couldn't get any better that SDs in the .4s and .5 ft/ sec with 5 shot accuracy of .075 thousandths, but never being satisfied, I decided on one more test. I performed all the same loading procedures But changed just the primers used to see the effects it would have. the average group size went from .075 thousandths. to .054 thousandths (Not exactly bench rest accuracy but still to die for in a hunting rifle).

Some of my friends commented that .022 thousandths didn't seem like much and I agreed that for normal deer hunting distance that you would never see the difference. But for long range (What we do) It amounted to almost a 30% improvement and at 800 to 1000 that would be significant.

So any improvement is important to me whether or not it is measurable at shorter distances.

OK ! Now I will get off the soap box and continue learning from others and sharing what little I know with others.

J E CUSTOM

 

[cajun]

Let me just say this. How tight or how much tolerance you have between your chamber wall and your brass has very little to do with making a rifle shoot. What is important is that everything from your bolt to your chamber to your barrel is in perfect alignment and your ammo is straight. The bullet is going to engage the throat, rifling before it leaves the case neck. That is why all these competition guys are so anal about loading ammo with very little runout. The rat turd in a violin is of course an exaggeration. Their view is that they did not want the chamber or neck putting any undue stress on the case, bullet to put it out of alignment with the bore. Obviously .002 clearance is not a sloppy fit. And of course excessive resizing can cause headspace issues. Imho it's more important to have straight ammo and a straight chamber with zero runout to the bore axis.

 

[bigngreen]

The difference many see in this is you may shoot some smaller groups when things line up neck sizing only but you will never shoot smaller when you look at every round fired over time and that is why you have guys in actual precision shooting sports saying no one neck sizes in this sport who is competitive, they measure every round down range including fliers and at actual long range. When I played with neck sizing I saw some impressive groups, I also saw fliers so in order to eliminate them I had to go through excessive amounts of prep and measuring, culling and hoops to reduce the fliers, got own to marking each case for indexing and how it shot. Full length sizing to a .002 shoulder bump immediately improved things, I didn't shoot my smallest but when measuring everything that came out of the guns I shoot way better because they were groups, not a group with a flyer and I could grab any round out of the box and it would shoot with any other round, they were all the same, predictable and reliable.

 

[cajun]

I look at it this way. If you want to learn something you look at what the experts do. The 1000 yd F class guys are some of the best long range shooters in the world. A smart guy would pay attention to what they do. Believe me if a guy can find a way to do something to gain an edge on the competition he is going to do it. I lurk at accurate shooter a lot because some of the best shooters post there. I can tell you that those guys pay a lot of attention to loading very consistent ammo. They pay a lot of attention to getting consistent neck tension to reduce es which is a killer at long distance. Another reason they fls is to avoid having issues chambering ammo on the firing line. As a hunter this is an important consideration. Also since these guys compete it gives some pretty good feedback on what works.

 

[gohring3006]

I do notice when I bump shoulders, there's always a few cases that chamber harder than others. It doesn't matter if I'm using my CO-AX or rockchucker, its in every cartridge I load for. Redding dies or lee dies, it happens. I anneal and prep cases pretty meticulously, and it's still there. Sometimes it equates to a flier and sometimes not. I got a new a new lot of star line 6.5 creed brass I'm getting ready to prep. I'm going to give this a try with 50 or so cases. I always have a open mind, and when Jerry says something works, I'm inclined to believe him. It's worth a shot, just going to keep my bolt lugs greased.

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

This post Is just to clarify My position on all of my post of this subject for those that can't seem to understand my reasoning for neck sizing my accuracy loads and many of my hunting loads.

I have laid out my loading procedures as clear as I can, And described the reason. I have shone many different VIDEO'S to show the many variations that others use to try and point out that there is not just one way to do things, and that the way I do things is just One of those ways.

I have also tried to explain that for different types of firearms different methods are required If a person want's the best performance. Performance is many things combined, and accuracy Is just one of them.

With out exception, all of my most accurate weapons/firearms use some form of Neck sized only ammo. I have known world class shooters and competed with some and find no need to quote them of what they tell everyone for a validation of my/their method. I only know what works for me In my rifles. So until I find something that improves on the method I now use, I will continue to get the best accuracy and performance from my firearms by sizing the way they like, not the easiest or the way someone says is better.

There is one thing I will never try or do though. I will never go to all the trouble of building any rifle as precision as I can, then load precision/concentric ammo and size it to fit like a rat turd in a violin case. Mainly because I don't hunt or shoot with a violin case. And cant imagine the accuracy potential of that system. Also I can't imagine a bench rest shooter doing anything sloppy. They are the most anal of all shooters and are absolute perfectionist (at least all the ones that helped me get started).

So don't anyone wast their time trying to tell me what method is the best in my firearms, prove it and explain why and how. Everyone has their way of loading that works best for them and should stick with it. those that are interested in finding something to improve their accuracy should do impartial and unbiased testing in their firearms the decide which method works best for them. I have a very accurate rifle In 7/08 that i has worked up ant thought it couldn't get any better that SDs in the .4s and .5 ft/ sec with 5 shot accuracy of .075 thousandths, but never being satisfied, I decided on one more test. I performed all the same loading procedures But changed just the primers used to see the effects it would have. the average group size went from .075 thousandths. to .054 thousandths (Not exactly bench rest accuracy but still to die for in a hunting rifle).

Some of my friends commented that .022 thousandths didn't seem like much and I agreed that for normal deer hunting distance that you would never see the difference. But for long range (What we do) It amounted to almost a 30% improvement and at 800 to 1000 that would be significant.

So any improvement is important to me whether or not it is measurable at shorter distances.

OK ! Now I will get off the soap box and continue learning from others and sharing what little I know with others.

J E CUSTOM

J E,
Your posts and input are valuable to many of us, me included. Often times it validates many of my processes. And yes, there can be several ways to do thing and still get the same results. Know matter what, I'm always appreciative of your posts and usually learn something from them.
If you are ever inclined, I'm interested in your entire process on brass prep.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Steve
P.S.
I too am a neck sizer

 

[Don A Parsons]

No one is telling anyone what to do,,, its only suggestion from what I see,,, others can read into this more than what our friend JE is sharing with us... give it a try or don't makes no difference to the majority of us...

The vertical down range will let you know if it works or not... Ha

Normally I try things a few times to see if I'm getting the results I'm after,,, thats what counts in my books...

Most of the time I neck size only,,, if my brass fits tight/ snugg into the chamber is gets bumped back a bit until it gets tight latter on...

Seems simple to me since snugg/ tight brass usually doesn't work in my rifles... free bolt handle drop or I dont send it... ha

Some of my best verticals at distance is with brass that fits the chamber like a glove...

Cheers from the North

 

[Don A Parsons]

PS: I forgot to add...

After learning how to pull the firing pin on my Remmy with no tools as explained on this forum,,, I've been able to check each of my brass in the chamber before loading the charge and seating the bullets...

Big thanks to Len for having the Holland Videos to watch on this forum,,, big time savings in funds and time...

This now allows me to fit the brass into the chambers of my rifles like a glove... big improvements to follow i hope...

 

[Riflehunter1776]

This post Is just to clarify My position on all of my post of this subject for those that can't seem to understand my reasoning for neck sizing my accuracy loads and many of my hunting loads.

I have laid out my loading procedures as clear as I can, And described the reason. I have shone many different VIDEO'S to show the many variations that others use to try and point out that there is not just one way to do things, and that the way I do things is just One of those ways.

I have also tried to explain that for different types of firearms different methods are required If a person want's the best performance. Performance is many things combined, and accuracy Is just one of them.

With out exception, all of my most accurate weapons/firearms use some form of Neck sized only ammo. I have known world class shooters and competed with some and find no need to quote them of what they tell everyone for a validation of my/their method. I only know what works for me In my rifles. So until I find something that improves on the method I now use, I will continue to get the best accuracy and performance from my firearms by sizing the way they like, not the easiest or the way someone says is better.

There is one thing I will never try or do though. I will never go to all the trouble of building any rifle as precision as I can, then load precision/concentric ammo and size it to fit like a rat turd in a violin case. Mainly because I don't hunt or shoot with a violin case. And cant imagine the accuracy potential of that system. Also I can't imagine a bench rest shooter doing anything sloppy. They are the most anal of all shooters and are absolute perfectionist (at least all the ones that helped me get started).

So don't anyone wast their time trying to tell me what method is the best in my firearms, prove it and explain why and how. Everyone has their way of loading that works best for them and should stick with it. those that are interested in finding something to improve their accuracy should do impartial and unbiased testing in their firearms the decide which method works best for them. I have a very accurate rifle In 7/08 that i has worked up ant thought it couldn't get any better that SDs in the .4s and .5 ft/ sec with 5 shot accuracy of .075 thousandths, but never being satisfied, I decided on one more test. I performed all the same loading procedures But changed just the primers used to see the effects it would have. the average group size went from .075 thousandths. to .054 thousandths (Not exactly bench rest accuracy but still to die for in a hunting rifle).

Some of my friends commented that .022 thousandths didn't seem like much and I agreed that for normal deer hunting distance that you would never see the difference. But for long range (What we do) It amounted to almost a 30% improvement and at 800 to 1000 that would be significant.

So any improvement is important to me whether or not it is measurable at shorter distances.

OK ! Now I will get off the soap box and continue learning from others and sharing what little I know with others.

J E CUSTOM

I appreciate your input. Like you, I've put years (30+) and a huge amount of work into determining what shoots best in my rifles. Each of the many ones of them I've owned over the years. After running exhaustive tests on powders, primers, seating depths, to determine that one combination shoots .025 better than something else in one particular rifle, I can't imagine the gross arrogance of people who would insist that you've done it all wrong and something else is better. Even though they've never laid eyes on your rifle or results.

For years, people have commented on how some brands attract an angry following of disciples who castigate anyone who questions their brand. Berger and Nosler disciples are infamous for this, but I think that Cortana's Wittnesses have surpassed them with their religious devotion to making sure everyone bump sizes or else. Again, these people have never laid eyes on your rifle. They've never seen the mountain of data that you accumulated through years at the range. But they will tell you that you are wrong, because they heard it somewhere else. They can't be content to follow their own method and shove as many rat turds into their own violin case as it will hold, they have to go round and around on the internet until they're the last man standing. There is one method. Bump sizing. All else is heresy. It gets old.

 

[J E Custom]

J E,
Your posts and input are valuable to many of us, me included. Often times it validates many of my processes. And yes, there can be several ways to do thing and still get the same results. Know matter what, I'm always appreciative of your posts and usually learn something from them.
If you are ever inclined, I'm interested in your entire process on brass prep.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Steve
P.S.
I too am aleck sizer

Post # 32 in this thread has a description of the basic steps I take and the process. by following this procedure, my fire formed cases have zero runout as fired. this way I know that If I start seeing runout during the loading process, I need to improve the steep that showed the first signs of a problem, and can work on improving it.

The major improvement came from totally prepping the case and turning the necks using a sizing mandrel that makes the turning mandrill fit perfect/concentrically, before the case neck is pushed off center by the differences in neck thickness.

The next step that can be an issue is the bullet seating step. this step can input poor concentricity
If your press doesn't allow the shell holder to float and the die does not line up the case body before the bullet is started into the case mouth. There are things that can improve this step but each person has to try different things with his equipment and process to find the weaknesses and correct/improve it.

It is very hard to load perfectly concentric ammo but if you can keep it below .002 thousandths you will have good accuracy/consistency If you can keep it below .001 you are golden.

J E CUSTOM

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Post # 32 in this thread has a description of the basic steps I take and the process. by following this procedure, my fire formed cases have zero runout as fired. this way I know that If I start seeing runout during the loading process, I need to improve the steep that showed the first signs of a problem, and can work on improving it.

The major improvement came from totally prepping the case and turning the necks using a sizing mandrel that makes the turning mandrill fit perfect/concentrically, before the case neck is pushed off center by the differences in neck thickness.

The next step that can be an issue is the bullet seating step. this step can input poor concentricity
If your press doesn't allow the shell holder to float and the die does not line up the case body before the bullet is started into the case mouth. There are things that can improve this step but each person has to try different things with his equipment and process to find the weaknesses and correct/improve it.

It is very hard to load perfectly concentric ammo but if you can keep it below .002 thousandths you will have good accuracy/consistency If you can keep it below .001 you are golden.

J E CUSTOM

Do you trim a fired case or a sized case. I trim a fired case.
I need to learn how to use a sizing mandrel. Haven't ever used one. I understand the method might help me eek out a bit more accuracy.

 

[J E Custom]

PS: I forgot to add...

After learning how to pull the firing pin on my Remmy with no tools as explained on this forum,,, I've been able to check each of my brass in the chamber before loading the charge and seating the bullets...

Big thanks to Len for having the Holland Videos to watch on this forum,,, big time savings in funds and time...

This now allows me to fit the brass into the chambers of my rifles like a glove... big improvements to follow i hope...

Pre-fitting Loaded ammo is advised when hunting dangerous game because that is not when you want to find out that some of your ammo wont chamber.

Personally, I full size this ammo and still check it to make sure it will chamber. It is wise to check it just before a hunt to make sure that nothing has changed. (I had a highly compressed 45/120 load that checked out OK after loading, but was difficult later and for some reason had expanded over time) fortunately it was not a dangerous game hunt and after trying several I found some that would chamber.

This tool makes stripping the firing out of the bolt a breeze and is cheep.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...remington-bolt-disassembly-tool-prod7650.aspx

J E CUSTOM