“My rifle shoots .2s and .3s” ... huh?

I shoot prone with bipod and bag except for one range, a 100yd, near my house that I have to shoot off their bench.

If I post a group size it's 3 rounds and I've been able to reproduce it with the rifle at least once.
 
A heavy front rest with "ears" on the bag where you can pinch in on the sides of the forearm are a tremendous help in eliminating flyers. Rabbit ear rear bag filled with "Heavy Sand" is also a great aid.

I also played with Bi Pods vs 1-2x10 plus two 2x6's as a base, with sand bags on top of the filled with "heavy sand" vs Bi Pod using a 22 PPC custom that shot very tiny groups. I got flyers with the Bi pod, never could figure it out. Since I was hiking around lava flows shooting rock chucks and then later on going to p. dog towns in SD, I wanted to see my error created by Bi Pods. I learned to accept the flyers, and did not think my barrel was going south in it's accuracy.

Today, Bi pods are much different, especially the one built by Tubb.

On another note, I did play with a lead sled for a while, I cracked a 460 Weatherby and 340 Weatherby stock in a few range sessions. Groups opened on very accurate rifles with the Lead Sled and I attributed this to the fact that mounting the rifle was not the same from shot to shot. I then shot a very accurate 22/250 with a lead sled, flyers could not be explained.

Wind is a tremendous factor in group size. For some reason, shooters resist getting simple, inexpensive wind flags. The same can be said for using a Tunner to tune in loads that are dumb butt simple to adjust(Harrells Precision, RAS, and Mike Ezel from Gunsandgunsmithing).

High power scopes are another thing that aid in shooting small groups, I use one scope to develop loads with, and another to hunt with often. I am attempting to remove all error in load development.

Recoil is an accuracy killer, how you grip the gun from shot to shot, steering the rifle with cheek weld, how you pull the gun into your shoulder from shot to shot. I started shooting much smaller groups when I started using Muzzle breaks on my rifles, and this is an understatement. Not thinking about the recoil that is about to come, is a great aid in being consistent from shot to shot. Side discharge muzzle breaks are VERY loud, I like the Gentry Muzzle break that throws the sound and concussion forward.

There is a learning curve in shooting off the ground vs shooting off a table vs standing and shooting. A guy that shoots off the ground with a bi pod all the time, will have one heck of a time shooting off a bench, and vise a versa. I am too old and broke down to shoot laying off the ground for more than a few shots, I will leave that to the youngsters.

If you are having trouble shooting very small groups consistently, then re-visit your cleaning techniques, reloading, and bench techniques. Of course, a rifle that is "stress free" bedded, barrel floated is a prerequisite to all pursuits in accuracy. Few factory rifles will shoot constant small groups in the .375 area because the action is in a bind due to bedding, and most stocks with a V block will benefit from a skim coat. Guys do not realize that actions warp a little during heat treat, and the bedding will help relieving the stress on the action. I have seen exceptions where untouched factory rifles will shoot small groups, but they are rare when a guy is wanting to shoot group after group where the bullets open up a single bullet hole.

I don't call 1/2" shooting small groups for a hunting rifle for long range.

This is a hobby, take it to the depths that you want to pursue. In the very least, get two wind flags, at least you will know if the wind is blowing left or right when you start shooting, pick the left or the right, pull the trigger when you see the condition you picked....you will simply be amazed in how much smaller the groups are that you shoot.

Start at the start when you are wanting to shoot tiny groups, Stress free bed the rifle, free float the barrel, tune or replace the trigger, scope. Buy or build simple wind flags, a piece of surveyors tape, taped on the top of a 1/4" steel rod that is 48" long , 15-25 yards in front of your target is a WHOLE LOT BETTER THAN NOTHING!

Reloading is a prerequisite for a guy that is wanting to shoot groups in the 1's, 2's, and 3's at 100 yards. Tuning the harmonics with the powder charge and especially the seating depth, establishing the concentricity of the loaded round is basic stuff along with stock quality, and benchrest set up.

These guns that shoot tiny groups usually start off with a gunsmith that has indicated in a high quality barrel to the 0.0001, with a properly designed reamer, and that gunsmith is a tremendous part of the equation.
 
Curious here...

Since it is common for folks to speak of their barrel/rifle's accuracy in terms of group size, I'm curious whether most folks are speaking of groups shot off a solid rest (and reporting mechanical, repeatable accuracy), or off a bipod/bag and reporting the effective accuracy of the "system", which includes shooter.

I don't have access to a sled to lock down my rifle. So when I do load development I'm shooting off a bipod, thereby inducing some shooter error.

When you report your barrel's accuracy on this forum, which method did you use to get that group—solid rest or bipod/bag?
When working up loads or making sure the scope and or other adjustments are done correctly I use a leadsled and sandbag weights, when shooting for accuracy which means shooters input as well I shoot either off a sand bag or bipod.
 
Translations:

"My rifle shoots in the .2s" = if I fire enough shots, cross out the flyers, the ones I pulled, and the ones where the wind or sighting got me, sometimes I'll have 3 shots within .2

"My rifle shoots in the .2s if I do my bit" = I'm a poor shooter with delusions of grandeur and have never shot a group under 1", but I know my rifle shoots .2 even though I've never been able to prove it.

"My rifle shoots .x inches all day" = as soon as I get a .x inch group I put my gun away.

"I once shot a .x inch group, here's a photo to prove it" = I got lucky, thank god for camera phones!

"I just shot five consecutive 5-shot groups under .2 on the one target" = would you like to see my gold medal from the world benchrest championships?

All in jest my friends!

[EDIT - added another translation]


Having competed for many years and been at the range thousands of time, I have heard all of these statements and more. I have also seen people cheating on there score in many different sports. The truth is if you use these methods and excuses you are only cheating your self. If you don't believe it can be done it is probably because you cant do it for what ever reason. I have all of my best targets for the records I keep, but normally don't take pictures, because I don't really care what someone else thinks or claims to be able to do or need to show off.

I read a post that stated just because you can shoot a group at a 100 yards doesn't mean that you can do as well at 500 yards. That is very true because you have added the human error and conditions that effect flight path by 5 times what it was at 100 yards. Also there was a mention of good groups and poor SDs shooting good at 100 and terrible at 500 yards. When test accuracy you are testing the quality of the rifle and the ammo. of course the accuracy will be poor at distance if the SDs are not good. I am testing all things and that include SDs if they are not single digits (Preferable less than .04) it will not be as accurate at 500+ yards as 100 so the goal is to get the SDs down below .04 or.05 I have never had a load produce a .00 SD but i have seen it once with a 280 AT for 5 shots so it is possible (I also ask him if he loaded for other people):)

Also the term , If I do my part Is a reality and If a person believes that it doesn't matter they will never get any better unless they try to "DO THERE PART" and help the rifle. Every rifle I own will out shoot me, and that's the way I want it Because it makes me want to 'do my part'.

J E CUSTOM
 
There's an unfortunate paradox, there are so many liars out there which exaggerate their ability with a rifle, such nobody believes anyone which actually can and does deliver. One might think people would instinctively look for truth in a pile of lies, but rather folks get so used to expecting falsehoods, they only view the world through lie colored glasses.

Even when truths are told, people look for something to tear it down - "they're only 3 shot groups, meaningless, should have shot 5," "they're only 5 shot groups, they don't mean anything, should have shot 10 shot groups," "it's only one group on one target, cherry-picking the best group doesn't mean anything," so then if someone posts up a half dozen groups on the same page, "it's only one set of targets on one day," or something like "it was from a bench, do it from field positions," or "it wasn't in competition, anyone can shoot well at home with unlimited time, prove it at a match sometime," or when someone uses a heavy rifle, "pretty hard to carry a 20lb rifle up a mountain," or if it's an expensive custom rifle, "I'd be disappointed if a $8,000 rifle didn't shoot like that, my Savage .270 will shoot that well for a fraction of the cost," or if it's 100 yard groups, "anyone can shoot small at 100, let's see how you do at 1,000," .... blah blah... When someone finally, actually delivers supreme accuracy, but people refuse to believe it and look for any way they can to tear it down.
 
Been a ballistics engineer for 40+ years, small cal focus over the past 12 years or so. IMO, quite a lot has to go right or nearly so to put 5 shots into a 1" group or less every time. Fliers are next to impossible to avoid, but you can make them smaller by judicious choice of bullets, careful loading, and good practices.
 
What you guys need to remember is alot of guys on here are or have been compatition shooters. I have shot short range mid range and long range compatition for many yrs. Also I build each one of my rifles with the best components you can get. Yes my 300 wsm will shoot 1s at 100 yards just about every time. If it's not a 1 it's a 2. This rifle weights 77 pounds. No I didn't forget the decimal point. 77 pounds. I shoot off of a Seb Max front rest and a custom oversize rear bag with heavy sand from Protector. My 17 pound rifle shoots just as good. These rifles have 6 inch wide forearms that greatly reduced torque and don't upset in the bags when operating the bolt. The guy with the 100 bucks should come right over I need some more brass. I build mostly compatition rifles now but still build my hunting rifles exactly the same way. Most of my hunting rifles will shoot in the 2s and 3s when I shoot them. I have a few customers kick my butt with rifles I built them. Now that is some satisfaction. So before you go offering 100 bucks to someone you should really know who they are and what they shoot. I've owned 10.5 pound 6ppcs that on a bad day would shoot 3s but mostly 1s and 2s. I have a customer I just built a 6br for. The first 3 shots out of it were in the same hole with a guess load. I taught this guy 3 years ago how to shoot and load. He now has a world record and beats me. He would be glad to take the hundo challenge. So in a nutshell yes I have guns that are mine and guns I have built that absolutely shoot 2s and 3s every weekend. I'm sure there are others on this site that does also.
Shep
 
The majority of my shooting is prone off a bipod. For using a chronograph and load development. I am moving over to a front rest and rear bag to see if I can eliminate as many variables as I can and see how it works out. I am having fun learning about all of this.
 
I always use my lead sled on a concrete bench when doing "the work" to try reduce shooting errors and foster repeatability. I have been told by some folks that Bi-Pods off the bench can actually induce some errors...I don't know about all that but Im definitely steadier off the sled. When practicing, I use various body positions, packs, sticks, rests etc., but that's shooting/hunting practice, not collecting data. Regarding the .2 &.3 groups everybody seems to be able to shoot:)--I'm skeptical, and a three shot group doesn't count in my book, five is a better sample size and what the bench resters shoot. I've had several bug hole groups going until that evil fourth shot...and/or fifth.
 
I'm a detached bipod & bag w/a rear bag for a hunting rifle, bipod attached to rifle w/a rear bag in F-class shooting (rule requirement). Many people report 3 shot groups, 5 shot groups demonstrate more of the rifle capability, 10-20 shot group demonstrates the rifle/shooter capability.
 
It depends on a lot of factors, being a competative benchrest shooter, and spending time with folks who must shoot 0.3" agregates to have a prayer, and aggs in the teens to be consistantly competative. This has made me very sceptical of most claims made here.

Consistantly shooting five shot groups that size takes a lot of work. The best rests, the best optics, the best bullets, finely tuned loads, windflags and knowing how to read them.

Many shooters don't even know how to measure groups and would have a hard time distinguishing between a 0.3" group and a 0.2" group. I've actually seen people call 0.6" groups sub-quarter minute. While I know people who can do it, I give claims of such feats with factory and sporting rifles using no flags, field rests and bipods, low power field optics, and even factory ammo, etc.... very little credibility.
 
I shoot for groups from a set of bags. I think the Caldwell filled ones. After I figured out A load my 260 has never shot greater than .75" though. I've had 2 groups under 3/8" but I usually don't shoot for groups much. I could probably do better with a better scope. I've got a 3-9x Nikon on it right now. I'd like a 4-16 vortex someday though.
 
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