Tighten guard screws, barrel pulls left, huh?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by jcpython357, Jul 8, 2003.

  1. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I noticed that when I swithched my 223 VS stock with the M24 stock on my 6mm, the 6mm fit perfectly in the VS stock unlike the way the VS fits in it, BTW, were talking the way it fits in the barrel channel, As far as The VS in the M24 stock goes, as soon as I start tightening the guard screws, it starts pulling to the left, leaving a slight gap on the left of the barrel channel and big gap on the right, pulling action out I notice on the rear left side of the recoil lug, the bluing is worn off more. I put my son's VSSF action in M24 stock, fits perfect also. What is going on here? What to do? Jay
     
  2. Celt

    Celt Active Member

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    The fix is to bed it, but then you will not be able to switch stocks back and forth.
    The problem is that the CNC machined bedding blocks are all alike. The actions are not since they are trown on a belt sander by hand before final finish. This means that they not all the same and are off in dimensions from one another.

    I would pick which stock you want for which action and bed them both. That will cure your problem and probably help a little on accuracy.

    Celt
     
  3. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Celt, You don't think the face of the reciever and recoil lug are out of wack? Remember, more bluing wore off on the left side of the lug, The reciever looks fine in the inletted area, when I take the action out of the stock, the reciever makes two nice concentric (contact) lines on the aluminum block of whichever stock I put it in. Jay
     
  4. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Go with fixing the bedding as Celt suggested.

    One size does not fit all in the firearms world.

    Jerry
     
  5. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I now tried the action in my son's VSSF stock, also. Thats three stock now, and the same result, pulls left in all the stocks I put it in, this is the only Rem. action that gives me any grief, I've got 5 in all, and the rest are a perfect fit, I'd think if the face of the reciever isn't square, maybe a few thousands off on one side, (The right side) that would pull the barrel to the left, hence the wear of the bluing on the left rear of the lug. If I were to bed it, it would still pull the barrel left, wouldn't it? Thoughts? Jay

    [ 07-08-2003: Message edited by: Jay Gorski ]
     
  6. Celt

    Celt Active Member

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    The reciever face is certainely not true on a factory rifle.
    Nost are out from .004" to .010" .010" being rare, but I have seen them.
    This would make the lug look the way it does.
    Bedding is still the answer other than truing the action, putting on a new barrl and bedding too.

    Celt
     
  7. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Celt, When I send it back to Remington repair shop, they're going to say, Bad bed, we'll put a new stock and that should fix it, and we know that won't work, then what will they do? They're not going to bed it for me, will they? Hopefully they'll pull the barrel and check the reciever face and lug. Can you explain how bedding will help when it appears the bottom of the reciever is squarely sitting in the aluminum, like I said, two contact marks evenly spaced on the forward part of the block? If I would bed it so the barrel is straight in the barrel channel, then go to snug-up the guard screws, something's going to give. And it doesn't matter if I start with the front or rear guard screws, I can go half a turn and it pulls left. What do you think? [​IMG] Jay
     
  8. Celt

    Celt Active Member

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    When I bed a stock, I bed from tang to tip, with the barrel floated .060" to.080" from the recoil lug out depending on the stock and barrel.

    I tape off the barrel to create the float and bed the whole barrel channel.
    This combined with bedding the action area will result with the barrel being straight in the "new" barrel channel.

    Remington will not bed the rifle nor will they square the action. They will most likely do nothing at all except tie up your rifle for a month or two and replace the trigger if you have a trigger job done on it.

    Bed it or have it bedded.
    When you bed it, the recoil lug will not be pressing up against the aluminum block that is straight. The bedding material will make a perfect fit for it.

    Just send it to a known rifle smith that is known for accurate rifles. He will bed it and your gun will shoot as good as it can with the exsisting barrel and untrue factory action.

    If you send it out, have the smith do the dial indicator test on it after he beds it. This will ensure the bedding is right and stress free.
    The indicator test is:
    With the rifle assembled and guard screws at 65 inch pounds, put the barrel in a vise with the rifle upside down and the forearm close to the vise.
    Put a magnetic based dial indicator on the vise.
    Put the needle of the indicator on the forearm of the stock.

    loose the front guard screw 1/4 turn.
    The dial should only move about .002"
    If it moves more than that, the bedding job is not right and there is stress on the action.

    It is the only inexpensive fix. Most bedding jobs run from $100- 150 for an HS stock.

    Celt

    [ 07-08-2003: Message edited by: Celt ]
     
  9. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Jay, this confirms again that you need to bed that action for one stock. Probably something is not square but no matter.

    Remove the exisiting bedding or make the factory inletting bigger. You want a little slop when you bed. Have shims available so that you can center the action in the stock when the bedding is curing. When the new bedding has hardened, you will have a custom fit for that action/stock and your problems will go away.

    Probably improve accuracy too as you are not stressing the action anymore. As Celt said, do check to ensure that the bedding does not stress or bend your action. Happens more often then gunsmiths want to admit. Happens most often in wood stocks bedded during the winter or high humidity conditions.

    Jerry
     
  10. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, I hate to sound stubborn here, but the action is already sitting squarely in the bed, by noting the contact marks on the aluminum and clearance on both sides of the reciever area, I have complete confidence in the HS stocks as to not have them bedded, I just don't believe in doing it after the way my 708 S/S w/HS Sporter stock and 6mm shoot, the 708 shoots as good as or better than a Jarrett hunting rifle, I'd really like to get the source of the barrel pulling to the left, which appears to be the face of the reciever not being square with the lug, I sent a e-mail to Rem. to see if they'll take the barrel off and check/square the face of the reciever if I send the rifle in, they'd probably give me a new rifle before they did that, like with the VSSF I bought my son last year where you could plainly see the barrel had a warp in it and they said they were going to put a new stock on it because the existing stock had a bad bedding block, bullshit, I told them I swapped barreled actions/stocks with my other 700s and they fit perfectly in the VSSF stock, but the VSSF barreled/action sits the same in every stock I put it in, the barrel still goes to the left and the warp is still there, finally after the big run around, the repair shop called me and said, how bout we put a new barrel on there for ya, they sent a new rifle, what a deal. [​IMG] Jay
     
  11. Celt

    Celt Active Member

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    OK, I'll try again.

    The recoil lug / action face is probably not true to the OUTSIDE or inside of the action.
    Even a trued action can have the lug off a little bit from the OUTSIDE of the action, although it will be trued where it counts and that is the bolt bore center.

    The lug being off a little will not be fixed by Remington. It is something that just is on a factory rifle PERIOD.

    bedding it will correct this, at least in the way it sits in the stock. The bedding material will be between the aluminum where the recoil lug sits and will make it a solid resting place for the lug even if the lug is off a bit.

    This is the only fix short of what I have said in prior posts.

    Your faith in the HS stocks bedding block is far too much. They too are not perfect and would not have an HS stock on a rifle that was not bedded PERIOD.
    I have seen bedding blocks crooked in the stocks. The ones that where ran for Weatherby awhile back where notorious for that. Got not a few replacement stocks from Weatherby when the problem was fixed.

    Like I said, even though advetrtised as drop in and interchangable, they are not, not if you want optimum accuracy.
    49 out of 50 times I bed an HS stock the rifle will shoot a little bit better. It ranges from as an example 5/8 groups to 1/2" groups at the least. It corrects the "flyers" caused by your same problem

    A rifle is a system of parts that needs to be ever so carefully blended in with one another to make a great shooter.

    Drop in is just not viable.

    You will find this problem in most factory rifles. It is not just limited to Remington.

    If you want a perfect rifle system, you have to get a custom built by a good rifle smith.

    Celt

    H.D. Rifles
     
  12. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Celt, Understood. Can't blame a guy for trying. Jay
     
  13. Celt

    Celt Active Member

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    Cool.
    I hope I didnt sound like I was Bit(hin or anything.
    It is hard to get expression accros on a key board especially when you are a lazy typer like myself and neglect to put in little smileys [​IMG]

    Hope you get you rifle problem worked out.
    Take care [​IMG]
    Celt
     
  14. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Celt, Checked out the website, NICE stuff there, I'm going to send the rifle back and see what happens, I can only hope for the best. Got a new rifle last time. The new VSSF 22-250 shoots about as good as my 223 does, and thats just not acceptable, I want under 1/2moa, which it should do, If a damn 708 can do it, a 223 should, or should I wake up from my pipe dream. BTW, My sons 22-250 is shooting just over 1/2moa to about .8 with H380, Rem. primers, 50VMAXs, do you think there's anything else I can do as far as loading goes? Is that about all I can hope for with a factory rifle? Jay