What second rifle for western hunting?

[FEENIX]

please tell me you are showing up to elk camp with a 22-250… to be clear I'm not advocating for using anything less than the right tool for the job. If the 22-250 is your huckleberry use it. But for me an elk rifle, and being he's already got a deer rifle in the 6.5cm, starts at 270 win and you can't kill them to dead. But I understand people have different recoil tolerance and rifle fit. The 300 prc or 7prc would make fine additions, and with a brake or can would be easily shootable. A braked 300 win with 200 grain bullets is something I'd let my 13 year old daughter shoot. But it's your tag and your money and your adventure take what risks you want

I have been using all types of muzzle brakes since 2003. Most of my rifles sport a muzzle device. I am not recoil-sensitive, but why not take advantage of what is available? An effective muzzle brake (and there are plenty of them at a very reasonable price) serves two purposes: reduction in felt recoil and reduction in muzzle rise. The latter is often not realized - being able to spot targets on impact is priceless.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Look into Seekins' new SLAM rifle. I played with it at SHOT Show and it is pretty awesome. I've known about it and have been waiting for it's public release for a while now. If it were me, I would purchase through their custom shop so that I could get a carbon fiber wrapped barrel, simply because that is my preference. I've had the best luck with CF barrels and will not shy away from the added price anymore.

Also, no matter what direction you go, I would recommend choosing a large magnum caliber ranging from 7 PRC to 300 RUM. This is simply to give you the option of a heavy hitter for larger game, like elk. I'm a western guy and my personal two-rifle setup is a 6.5 PRC and 338 EDGE. one mainly for mule deer and the other for elk. I've shot and guided many who have shot elk with 6mms, 6.5s, 7mms, etc... and NOTHING puts an elk on the ground like a magnum 30 cal, which is also WAY outperformed by a 338 (empirically speaking). I don't care if you shoot bonded bullets out of a 6.5 CM, you still will never see an elk hit ground the way they do when a 300 grain 338 cal bullet hits them. which is good, because dragging an elk out of a creek bottom or thicket that ran there to die after the shot is... not fun.

The Slam looks awesome. I like nice things but I can't justify $4600 for what it is and I'm sure a CF barrel would only increase that price. They're basically charging $2000 for that chassis over the price of what you can get a complete Element rifle for.

I've bought 3 of their rifles since September (two DMR's and one PH2) and have been amazed by what you get for the price which is my draw to a second PH2 or Element. I like quality that fits my needs at a good value and the Slam just isn't there for me. I can get an Origin, an MDT HNT26, and a Proof prefit for over $1K less than it's base price and have practically the same thing and be within a pound or so and have a setup that I can just order prefits to swap around as I see fit. My price is about $1600 on a PH2 so I could get two more barrels made and still have nearly $2K left over for glass for the cost of the Slam.

They say there will be a production version of it in the future and the chassis will be available to buy so I might entertain those depending on price, but when I can get a HNT26 folder for about $1400 with discount it would have to be less than that for me to consider it, especially since it weighs the same.

 

[dogz]

Look into Seekins' new SLAM rifle. I played with it at SHOT Show and it is pretty awesome. I've known about it and have been waiting for it's public release for a while now. If it were me, I would purchase through their custom shop so that I could get a carbon fiber wrapped barrel, simply because that is my preference. I've had the best luck with CF barrels and will not shy away from the added price anymore.

Also, no matter what direction you go, I would recommend choosing a large magnum caliber ranging from 7 PRC to 300 RUM. This is simply to give you the option of a heavy hitter for larger game, like elk. I'm a western guy and my personal two-rifle setup is a 6.5 PRC and 338 EDGE. one mainly for mule deer and the other for elk. I've shot and guided many who have shot elk with 6mms, 6.5s, 7mms, etc... and NOTHING puts an elk on the ground like a magnum 30 cal, which is also WAY outperformed by a 338 (empirically speaking). I don't care if you shoot bonded bullets out of a 6.5 CM, you still will never see an elk hit ground the way they do when a 300 grain 338 cal bullet hits them. which is good, because dragging an elk out of a creek bottom or thicket that ran there to die after the shot is... not fun.

GAWriter-curious to know who you guide for and in what state for elk?

Thx

 

[kgarrett]

I've decided to go with a PH2 in 7mm Rem Mag.

I did a lot of research last night on the factory PRC ammo on forums and reviews and there's a ton of people not getting anywhere near the box velocity with the 7PRC stuff. Even early lots that were having pressure signs people are getting well under stated velocity. Some people with recent lots are reporting under 2700FPS. I've gotten 2800fps with 185 Juggernauts in 308's LOL. Regardless even estimating it at a median of 2800fps with the 175gr ELDX which is over what a lot of people are reporting it makes the external ballistics not so great. The 7mm Rem Mag 162gr ELDX load actually ends up have very similar down range performance and there's a lot more ammo options for it like the Barnes LRX and Federal with Berger hybrid hunters both of which I've used in other chamberings with great results.

I can always send it back to Seekins and get a 7PRC barrel for it in the 22" element or 26" PH2 for $550. Or even get a 300WM or 300PRC barrel if the 7RM seems mild.

Thanks to those who contributed positively.

Great choice. I think it or the 7 PRC in the PH2 are the best cartridge for you from following this thread. Very glad you didn't go with another 6.5 CM - I just don't think it would add much given what you've already got.. I think the 7 magnums are a better choice for all western game cartridge (I've got 3 CM and 2 Grendel's) a 6.5 CM and a 7 RM are an excellent 2 rifle battery.

In the past year, I've decided to move to a 6.5 PRC and a 300 PRC for big game hunting. My 6.5 CM and 7 RM will be sold. Too much overlap with the two I'm planning to use primarily IMO. Your CM and 7 RM have a similar gap in terminal performance - hope you get a chance to shoot the barrel out of both!

 

[Taylorbok]

You need a 22LR and a 50BMG everything dead.

 

[JemezDave]

I would stick to the more modern or improved cartridges because they have the faster twist rates that will run any bullet like the heaviest solid copper bullets, and they tend to have the right size magazine lengths without a silly belt or the bullets seated way down in the case like the 300WM for example. The reason that's important to me is that I believe in tough bullets for elk and bear. I know there are many people here who like the Bergers and other cup and core even match bullets but I never was a follower. If you want to stabilize a 210 Barnes solid for elk, you won't do it with any of the old caliber unless you change the barrel for a 1/8 twist, which my 300PRC came with. I like the Barnes for elk. For deer, cup bullets are fine most of the time but elk at long range sooner or later you'll lose one. Anyways, I sold my 300WM but kept the 300PRC and never looked back. Also, I'm continually perplexed by the "you can find ammo anywhere" statement that keeps coming up for all the old calibers. Why would you want to? I hunted for 50 years straight and never once forgot or lost my ammo. I also have never found a single box of ammo over the counter that out-shot my handloads that I tailored for any of my rifles. Some boxes were acceptable to 400-500 yards maybe, but none had any business getting launched at game at long range. In other words, you are not going to win a thousand yard rifle competition with factory ammo unless you are by yourself. As to the question the OP asked, I was going to say 300 PRC and 7mm PRC until I heard about velocity issues I haven't looked into that yet (7PRC). I've heard all the arguments and this is my opinion, which you asked for and that's all it is. I will add that I went to the 300s for elk because I wanted more power and range than my .270 could give (yes under powered). I passed on the 7mm RM. For an all rounder single caliber I would probably go with the 7 PRC, 26", with no brake. I still carry the .270 for deer. Anyways, don't anyone blow a gasket, and have a nice day.

 

[dogz]

darn................that's a paragraph

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I would stick to the more modern or improved cartridges because they have the faster twist rates that will run any bullet like the heaviest solid copper bullets, and they tend to have the right size magazine lengths without a silly belt or the bullets seated way down in the case like the 300WM for example. The reason that's important to me is that I believe in tough bullets for elk and bear. I know there are many people here who like the Bergers and other cup and core even match bullets but I never was a follower. If you want to stabilize a 210 Barnes solid for elk, you won't do it with any of the old caliber unless you change the barrel for a 1/8 twist, which my 300PRC came with. I like the Barnes for elk. For deer, cup bullets are fine most of the time but elk at long range sooner or later you'll lose one. Anyways, I sold my 300WM but kept the 300PRC and never looked back. Also, I'm continually perplexed by the "you can find ammo anywhere" statement that keeps coming up for all the old calibers. Why would you want to? I hunted for 50 years straight and never once forgot or lost my ammo. I also have never found a single box of ammo over the counter that out-shot my handloads that I tailored for any of my rifles. Some boxes were acceptable to 400-500 yards maybe, but none had any business getting launched at game at long range. In other words, you are not going to win a thousand yard rifle competition with factory ammo unless you are by yourself. As to the question the OP asked, I was going to say 300 PRC and 7mm PRC until I heard about velocity issues I haven't looked into that yet (7PRC). I've heard all the arguments and this is my opinion, which you asked for and that's all it is. I will add that I went to the 300s for elk because I wanted more power and range than my .270 could give (yes under powered). I passed on the 7mm RM. For an all rounder single caliber I would probably go with the 7 PRC, 26", with no brake. I still carry the .270 for deer. Anyways, don't anyone blow a gasket, and have a nice day.

In the Seekins rifles the .30's are 10 twist and and the 7's are 8 twist, so they're the same. I shot 300WM for ELR and burnt out a few barrels and the belt never gave me a single issue. After the first firing I just bumped the neck back .003" like anything else. I bought a Willis die because everyone said I'd have to resize that dreaded belt and I never took the thing out of the box once.

The PRC has some merit with the base of the bearing surface staying above the base of the neck, but you can clearly make it work with bullets seated deeper and we did for years. The throats are generally long in most rifles though so if you're loading you usually end up with the bullet seated above the neck shoulder junction anyway.

As to factory ammo consistency, I've shot plenty of factory ammo at distance that held its own. In fact I was shooting my 6ARC gas gun out to 1200 yards recently with Hornady ammo and it was ridiculously consistent. I was hitting a 4" plate at 800 yards with it too. I've easily shot 30K rounds of FGMM over the years between 308, 6.5CM and 300WM with great consistency. With 300WM I was getting hits at 2300 yards at Arena with 190gr FGMM. You can do quite well with factory ammo and there's PRS shooters who do too.

 

[GAWriter]

GAWriter-curious to know who you guide for and in what state for elk?

Thx

Idaho. not guiding anymore since i've lived in KY for the last two years though. I plan on getting back into it this year after my move to MT.

 

[JemezDave]

In the Seekins rifles the .30's are 10 twist and and the 7's are 8 twist, so they're the same. I shot 300WM for ELR and burnt out a few barrels and the belt never gave me a single issue. After the first firing I just bumped the neck back .003" like anything else. I bought a Willis die because everyone said I'd have to resize that dreaded belt and I never took the thing out of the box once.

The PRC has some merit with the base of the bearing surface staying above the base of the neck, but you can clearly make it work with bullets seated deeper and we did for years. The throats are generally long in most rifles though so if you're loading you usually end up with the bullet seated above the neck shoulder junction anyway.

As to factory ammo consistency, I've shot plenty of factory ammo at distance that held its own. In fact I was shooting my 6ARC gas gun out to 1200 yards recently with Hornady ammo and it was ridiculously consistent. I was hitting a 4" plate at 800 yards with it too. I've easily shot 30K rounds of FGMM over the years between 308, 6.5CM and 300WM with great consistency. With 300WM I was getting hits at 2300 yards at Arena with 190gr FGMM. You can do quite well with factory ammo and there's PRS shooters who do too.

I stand by what I said. 10 twist is too slow to run a 212 Barnes and I bet you can't explain why. I don't like the way belted cartridges feed and, just don't like them. That case was adapted from an antique cartridge to make another cartridge. Never said the 300WM was a slouch in the accuracy department, I just like the PRC better-no aggravations at all. PRS-I don't shoot PRS but correct me if I'm wrong all you have to do is hit the plate at whatever range no? I hope that doesn't carry over to your big game hunting. I like more precision than that for game. I had the Willis die-it is still a good check that you don't need for non-belted cartridges. Also, I never bump .003. I bump for just a little feel before the bolt stops. Much longer brass life that way and you'll never have to have a gunsmith pull a separated case from your rifle.
I posted a pic comparing 212 ELDX in 300WM and PRC. I tried to match the case ends pretty close but you get the idea. You would need to ream the WM to seat that bullet out. How many grains of powder do you think you lose in the WM because of that long bullet in the powder column?
Yes in your ARC example factory ammo can be consistent. But what I said is the factory ammo will never be as good as what a good handloader can produce for a specific rifle. But if you think it is, knock yourself out and go with the factory ammo. Can't argue with 4" at 800, but how often were you hitting it? 1 in 10, 2 in 10 shots? How do you know that's the best you can do? What was the standard deviation for those rounds? I'll bet you don't even know. And again, what I said was, you won't win an accuracy contest at long range with over the counter ammo against people that know what they're doing. I didn't say you can't do quite well in PRS. Anyway, I see you know everything so why did you ask? Sorry I replied at all. You're right and I'm wrong-feel better? Ha!

 

[LTH181818]

Brakes are a personal preference and plenty of people don't like them. That was one of my questions in the original post too and several people said no brakes.

In then field continually, I like brakes best.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Where I'm from, gun numbers are held at 15 total unless you spend a lot of money on private security and automatic police notification if a break-in occurs.
My solution has always been to build switch barrel rifles so I can run 2-3 barrels chambered in similar cartridges but differing calibres.
So, when I went across to New Zealand, I could take ONE rifle with 2-3 calibres and just pay the extra for the rounds carriage. Maximum is set at 100 total, but I could take 3 20 round boxes, or a 50 round box with 25 of each for 2 barrels.
This has always worked very well for me, don't see the point dragging 3 rifles on planes, through check-in etc.

Cheers.

 

[Roughrice]

I have many capable rifles but would keep it simple if a backup is needed.
I have long range hunting rifles to dial up for that long range shot...BUT, I also have no frills rifles (as capable) that have 2-10 scopes that can still confidently connect at 400-500 yards if I had to.
That simple approach is what I'd roll with if I need a backup.

 

[FireFlyFishing]

Ok, you want western advice. Here it is. You don't like it, tough. You asked.

Leave your man bun at home unless you're a good enough hunter to get close enough to your quarry.

I only hunt .30 cal or larger for all game minus birds and varmints. Yes, I use brakes. No, I don't cry when I use them. Use ear pro, not that hard.